WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.560 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:05.560 --> 00:00:10.760 This is episode 120, recorded February 28th, 2019. 00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:11.840 I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:12.660 And I'm Brian Okken. 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:14.980 And this episode is sponsored by DigitalOcean. 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:17.260 Check them out at pythonbytes.fm/digitalocean. 00:00:17.260 --> 00:00:20.920 Lots of good stuff with that URL, but more about that later. 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:22.900 Brian, welcome back to the show, man. 00:00:22.900 --> 00:00:24.680 Oh, thanks. Nice episode last week. 00:00:24.680 --> 00:00:29.020 Thanks, yeah. We went to Seattle and we all had fun and sadly you were knocked out, but understandably. 00:00:29.020 --> 00:00:32.960 Man, I sent it to everybody I knew, my daughter and a whole bunch of people and said, 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:37.780 at least listen to the first bit of it because this is why I enjoy working with Michael. 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:41.500 It was so nice of you to do a shout out to me. That was nice. 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:43.320 Thanks. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah, you're welcome. 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.120 It's the least I could do. Wish you were there, but that's okay. 00:00:46.120 --> 00:00:50.880 Speaking of people who were almost there, at least was at the conference who I got to spend a lot of time with, 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.160 but wasn't actually at that live recording, Nina Zinkarenko. 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.720 How about that? That's our first, the source of our first item, right? She is? 00:00:57.720 --> 00:01:02.800 Yes. How could I resist? She put together this wonderful resource for people. 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.980 So what I'm talking about is the ultimate guide to memorable tech talks. 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:26.860 She said it was going to be a blog post and it turned into what she calls a book, but it's a seven articles on Medium and it's a seven part series that she covers things like choosing a topic, writing a talk proposal, tools that she uses, planning, writing it, writing your talk out, practicing it and delivering the talk. 00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:34.360 And it's a phenomenal resource. 00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:39.520 of it. But one of the things, I mean, it speaks right to me because I got into podcasting partly 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:45.320 to get better about this public speaking thing, and it's difficult. And especially for, I think, 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:52.200 tool nerds and introverts and stuff like that, jumping into the tools and in the little details, 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.660 you can lose sight of stuff. So one of the things she noticed, she quote from the article is, 00:01:56.660 --> 00:02:02.420 I noticed I'd procrastinate on making the slides look good instead of focusing my time on making 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:08.040 quality content. It's easy to get sucked into that, yeah. Yeah, totally. When I should have been, 00:02:08.040 --> 00:02:14.640 like, I've given two talks and many, many talks informally at work and stuff, but two conferences. 00:02:14.640 --> 00:02:21.640 And I spent so much time just tweaking the different slides instead of practicing it and making sure I 00:02:21.640 --> 00:02:27.180 understand it well enough to even throw the slides away and just do the talk. And so I think focusing 00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:33.940 on planning and leaving all that, the time enough to get all that. This is actually the series that I 00:02:33.940 --> 00:02:39.820 wish I had when I started getting into trying to do talks because either you have out there, there's 00:02:39.820 --> 00:02:45.160 either stuff that doesn't have enough information, it's just a quick gloss over, or it focuses on one 00:02:45.160 --> 00:02:51.360 aspect. Or on the other end, you've got courses and books. This is just a series of blog posts that you can, 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:56.180 you know, staple together with one staple. So yeah, it's good. Not the big, heavy, super duper, 00:02:56.180 --> 00:03:01.780 like binder staple, but like a regular one, right? Like the red one from Office Space. Yeah, 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:06.720 yeah. Just one of those. Yeah. Now this is a great series and nice work, Nina. Good pick, 00:03:06.720 --> 00:03:11.560 Brian. I think it'll help a lot of people. I like that it's writing, you know, she covers writing the 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:16.320 talk proposal because it's great to get into public speaking, but you have to get accepted to get into 00:03:16.320 --> 00:03:21.300 public speaking a lot of times. Although, although at the bigger conferences, say PyCon, 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:24.520 you can always do an open space and that's kind of like a dip your toe in the water because you 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.200 don't have to lead the whole conversation, but you kind of are sort of leading it in spirit. 00:03:29.200 --> 00:03:34.320 Yeah. And then you can go through all of these steps for just to get ready. And you only have 00:03:34.320 --> 00:03:37.760 to be up there for, I don't know how long the lightning talks are, but they're not long. 00:03:37.760 --> 00:03:41.740 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Lightning talks are five minutes. Open spaces, I think are 25, 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:45.000 but you don't do the talking the whole time. We're definitely going to, you know, 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.900 you spoke about the live recording. We're definitely going to do more live recordings 00:03:47.900 --> 00:03:50.780 at the main PyCon as some open spaces, if nothing else. 00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:53.800 Yeah, definitely. I wanted to interview a bunch of people for stuff. 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.040 So bringing the mics. Okay, super. So the next one is something I've been digging into lately. 00:03:58.040 --> 00:03:59.900 Have you done anything with Kubernetes? 00:03:59.900 --> 00:04:00.820 No. 00:04:00.820 --> 00:04:02.580 Let me take a step back. Have you done anything with Docker? 00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:03.060 No. 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:07.840 So these two things are sort of stacked on top of each other and they often get complicated. So 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:12.540 Docker is a little bit of a complicated thing if you haven't done a lot of like deployment and 00:04:12.540 --> 00:04:18.240 DevOps type stuff because it's all about configuring Linux isolated machines, if you will. And then 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:23.760 in order to actually use them properly, really, with scale out and failover and clusters and 00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:28.040 connections between them and all that, like a Docker container for your web app, one for the database, 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:31.200 you really need some kind of orchestration, which is Kubernetes. 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:37.960 So there's a ton to learn about all this stuff. Luckily, Michael Herman from testdriven.io, 00:04:37.960 --> 00:04:44.320 formerly of real Python, I did a really nice write up here. So he has a course on testdriven.io. 00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:52.300 And this is like an extracted long example tutorial to get started with Flask on Kubernetes. 00:04:52.300 --> 00:04:54.440 Wow. That actually sounds neat. 00:04:54.440 --> 00:04:57.660 Yeah, it's actually pretty approachable. I mean, I said it's a complicated topic. 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:02.420 He really lays out the core ideas. And you know, if you ask Pocket, it says reading time 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:07.000 is 16 minutes. So it's pretty hefty, but it's not book size. It's not super, super long. 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:11.480 Of course, the little steps that it says, like take more than, you know, just one line or whatever, 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.980 right? You got to like, let it configure a cluster or something. So there's a little wait periods, 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:21.760 but really nice. It talks about how to basically get a Vue.js front end Flask back end app that talks 00:05:21.760 --> 00:05:26.160 to a database, Postgres in particular, up and running on a Kubernetes cluster. So kind of 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.140 microservice style, which is pretty cool. And I'll just run off some of the goals. You guys 00:05:30.140 --> 00:05:34.220 kind of know like what you'll get out of it. So explain what a container and container orchestration 00:05:34.220 --> 00:05:40.100 is. Pros and cons of you using Kubernetes over say things like Docker swarm, all the primitive 00:05:40.100 --> 00:05:45.820 concepts of Kubernetes, node pod service deployment, et cetera, spinning up a Python app, which is 00:05:45.820 --> 00:05:51.260 nice locally with Docker compose. There's a nice little utility called minikube, which lets 00:05:51.260 --> 00:05:58.140 you basically in just a couple of command lines create a Kubernetes cluster pre-configured on 00:05:58.140 --> 00:06:03.260 your machine, which is a super pain. So that's really nice that you can just install that thing 00:06:03.260 --> 00:06:06.160 and have it go and stuff like that. It's really quite nice. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:11.840 Oh, I'm definitely going to check this out. Plus, like in 16 minutes, I can now put like 75 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:13.520 new keywords on my resume. 00:06:13.700 --> 00:06:16.640 Oh yeah. This is dense in buzzword bingo hits. 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:17.000 Yeah. 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:23.440 Nice. You and I both picked something that's a little bit on the controversial side of the 00:06:23.440 --> 00:06:26.860 world and open source and the community. You go first. 00:06:26.860 --> 00:06:33.940 Okay. So this is just, I think it's still playing out, but in the end of January, maybe they announced 00:06:33.940 --> 00:06:41.780 it earlier, but on the Travis CI blog, they announced that Travis CI is to join a Dara idea. I don't know. 00:06:41.780 --> 00:06:47.600 Another company, basically they got bought by a company and frankly, I don't really care who owns 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:57.200 what, but then in February, I started seeing the hashtag Travis alums on Twitter and they looks like, 00:06:57.200 --> 00:07:00.900 I mean, from the outside looking in, it looks like they're laying off a bunch of engineers. 00:07:00.900 --> 00:07:04.940 I don't really know what's going on because they're not really talking about it. There hasn't been 00:07:04.940 --> 00:07:11.160 anything else on the GitHub or the Travis CI blog to say what's going on. So I've used Travis for 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:16.920 running tests on Python projects. So I wanted to, I thought, you know, I've wanted to do this anyway. 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:21.780 So now's a good time to start looking at if I've got source code on GitHub, I want to use the, 00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:28.740 and I want to use testing somewhere and it isn't Travis, where would I do it? And so trying right 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:34.920 now I'm trying to use GitLab and Azure pipelines with the help of some other people to try to get 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:40.100 those running on a couple of projects, but there's a lot more. I mean, GitHub lists 17 different options 00:07:40.100 --> 00:07:45.360 for continuous integration that you can hook up. So yeah, that's a big deal, right? Like Travis has been 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:51.880 kind of the go-to plug it into your open source public GitHub repo and just let it turn away and, 00:07:51.880 --> 00:07:54.640 you know, do all the checks on PRs and things like that, right? 00:07:54.640 --> 00:08:01.100 They've claimed that our experience is not going to be different. However, with less engineers, it's, 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:04.080 I don't know, it seems like it might stagnate and stuff. 00:08:04.440 --> 00:08:10.260 Yeah. Something that you also talked about here is Azure pipelines, Azure build pipelines. And that 00:08:10.260 --> 00:08:13.800 definitely seems like it's getting a lot of traction. I've heard of some major open source 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:18.220 projects moving over to that either partially or entirely. 00:08:18.220 --> 00:08:23.300 I'm dropping a few links in here. One of the links is a couple of things from Anthony Shaw. Of course, 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:29.200 it wouldn't be a show without Anthony. One of them is an article that he writes about Azure pipelines 00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:37.400 with Python, by example. And also he's got a, a pytest plugin to help with testing on it, on Azure. 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:42.520 And then one of the people that's been helping me out is, I'm going to get his name wrong, 00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:48.240 but Anthony's saw tile. So too, sorry, Anthony, but he's got a whole bunch of different Azure 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.820 templates on his GitHub repo that look neat. 00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:57.780 Yeah. Cool. And as far as I understand it, Azure pipelines are free for public repos and things like 00:08:57.780 --> 00:08:59.360 that. So it's, it's, it's interesting. 00:08:59.540 --> 00:09:05.860 All the things I'm going to try are things that have a reasonable free levels for open source 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:06.400 projects. 00:09:06.400 --> 00:09:09.340 That's kind of an interesting trend that's been going on. There's a lot of things that are 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:14.600 free for public open source repos, but paid for private stuff. And that's a, 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.460 seemed like a pretty good balance to me. 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:22.400 Having the GitHub go to allow private repos is interesting. And I'm not, you know, I'm not sure 00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:25.640 what drove the, Travis change, but yeah, anyway. 00:09:25.640 --> 00:09:28.980 Yeah. I'm pretty sure GitHub was pressured by Bitbucket, 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:33.000 but I don't know anything about the roots of the Travis one. I do have more, a good news 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:39.060 around digital ocean for you and all the listeners. So they've traditionally had these like high 00:09:39.060 --> 00:09:45.200 compute instances called droplets, they're virtual machines, and they've had memory heavy ones, 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:52.040 but the memory heavy ones didn't have dedicated CPUs. Like you did it shared with the Veeam host, 00:09:52.040 --> 00:09:58.660 right? So you couldn't be guaranteed of like consistent workloads on that thing. So now they're announcing a 00:09:58.660 --> 00:10:05.120 general purpose droplet that is a blend of dedicated CPUs and a wide range of memory configurations. 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:11.580 So basically you can get, quite a bit of Ram. I think the lowest one is eight gigs and it goes up 00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:17.420 to either 64, 128 gigs of Ram and a whole bunch of dedicated CPUs. So it's pretty cool. And they 00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:22.940 talk about, you know, some good examples of using it would be like web applications, hosting like an 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:28.880 e-commerce site where latency matters or, a medium size relational Postgres or, or no SQL like 00:10:28.880 --> 00:10:33.800 MongoDB database. Cause you want your database to be fast, right? Like that's the heart of your app, 00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:38.920 even if you scale the web front end and other sorts of analytics and so on. So you can check that out. 00:10:38.920 --> 00:10:42.960 It's under limited availability, but, you can go and like click a button and say, I want to try 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:48.360 this. So check them out at pythonbytes.fm/digital ocean. It really supports the show. It 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:49.240 keeps us going each week. 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:50.660 Yes. Very cool. 00:10:50.660 --> 00:10:56.960 Yeah. Thanks. So speaking of infrastructure, it's cool to be able to set up your code and your websites 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:02.400 and all of your infrastructure to run on Linux. And you might even do that on Docker and you might even 00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:08.200 put those Docker containers on Kubernetes. But a lot of us are not using Linux as our dev machine, 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:12.040 right? A lot of us are using Macs, at least the ones you'll see walking around the conferences. 00:11:12.040 --> 00:11:18.300 So this next item is called a Python server setup for macOS. That's a cool little Apple emoji. 00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:18.820 Nice. 00:11:18.820 --> 00:11:23.220 Yeah. So if you want to run like your Nginx and your uWSGI or your Gunicorn or like 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:29.600 your production software stack, but you want to run it locally on macOS, here's a little guide on how 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:34.200 to do that. So it basically takes you through setting up Nginx, having Nginx serve your static assets 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:38.680 through using Gunicorn and flask, but you could pretty easily swap that out for, 00:11:38.680 --> 00:11:45.260 you know, uWSGI and whatever, whatever else you want to use. And then having Nginx be the 00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:49.900 front end proxy for like a scaled out Gunicorn back end. So it's pretty cool. Now I went through 00:11:49.900 --> 00:11:55.560 this recently and not all the commands are seem to be working, at least on my system. I don't know why, 00:11:55.560 --> 00:12:00.460 what they're going through. Maybe I missed a step, but even if the commands don't all exactly work, 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:05.600 I think it's still is a pretty good guide and it's on GitHub. So if you find mistakes, 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:10.020 open an issue. It's not super popular, but I think a lot of people will find it helpful if they, 00:12:10.020 --> 00:12:15.280 they're trying to develop in something closer to their actual configuration. 00:12:15.280 --> 00:12:19.700 Okay. Is this for more for like a, for a development environment sort of thing? 00:12:19.700 --> 00:12:24.060 Yeah, exactly. Cause normally what you do is you get something like waitress or you get some other 00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:32.580 built in like wimpy non-production full Python based web server. And then all the requests go 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:36.820 through your like flask or pyramid or whatever. But in production, it doesn't work that way. You 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:41.480 have Nginx doing SSL and doing static assets, and then it only passes the Python requests over. 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:46.040 And there's just like, there's quite a bit of difference. So if you want to have sort of a QA 00:12:46.040 --> 00:12:48.000 local thing on your Mac, here you go. 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:49.240 Oh, that's nice. Okay. 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:50.020 Yeah. Pretty cool. 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:50.480 Check this out. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:51.780 Uh-huh. What do you got for the next one? 00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:58.320 When I started using a command line interface stuff, I used a click. So I did a quick search 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:04.380 for different ways to build a command line interface. Meaning like if I, not an interactive thing, 00:13:04.380 --> 00:13:09.220 although I know that those are a thing, but just if I want to, if I've got a script that I'm 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:15.860 writing and I want to take values in, it's parsing the arguments passed into the script or whatever. 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:21.380 Click is great. I love it. But it's something extra. It's not built into Python yet. It's an 00:13:21.380 --> 00:13:26.120 extra dependency. That's fine for a lot of times. But sometimes you just want to like a couple 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:31.120 different parameters that somebody could pass in. And so the built-in arg parse is part of the 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.980 standard library. And that would be good to use. 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:38.860 Yeah, it's cool. And it's better than just going to, you know, sys.argv and going after an array of 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:40.620 whatever, right? You get a little more help than that. 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:44.080 Right. I actually didn't realize that arg parse was so easy. So there's, 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:49.020 Jeff Hale put together an article called Learn Enough Python to Be Useful Arg Parse. 00:13:49.020 --> 00:13:56.280 That's a kind of long title, but it's a tutorial on arg parse. And it's that I couldn't find a good 00:13:56.280 --> 00:14:01.460 intro guide for arg parse when I needed one. So I wrote this article and I got to say, it's a very 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:06.980 nice, quick introduction. So if you want to throw some arguments on an application, try this. 00:14:07.180 --> 00:14:10.300 It definitely seems like a good idea. There's certainly times where I'm like, you know, I just 00:14:10.300 --> 00:14:15.620 don't feel like going to all the formality. I just need to know basically, did they pass some simple 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:21.060 thing here? Yes or no. Right. And this is, this is cool, especially for my little proof of concept 00:14:21.060 --> 00:14:26.220 ideas. Yeah. Yeah. So it comes built in, which is, yeah, really nice. Nothing to install. 00:14:26.920 --> 00:14:30.640 So you don't want to naturally take on click and make people go through virtual environments 00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:35.900 and pip and all that. If literally this is the only, that would be the only thing, right? So 00:14:35.900 --> 00:14:39.660 here's another good chance to not do that. Oh yeah. That's a great idea is if you don't already 00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:44.740 have any other dependencies than, yeah, using this. Exactly. Cause that'll definitely increase the 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:50.320 challenge of using your code. All right. So, you got to go first with Travis CI. I have another 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:55.040 one that's a little bit of a sticky situation here, but I think it's really interesting to dig into. 00:14:55.040 --> 00:15:02.020 Okay. Okay. This is actually from January 14th. Actually, let me look at the AWS blog and see when 00:15:02.020 --> 00:15:06.580 they published it, January 9th. So this is something I've been wanting to talk about for a 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:11.160 little while, but it's, it's involved. There's a lot of moving parts and a lot of layers to this. So I 00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:16.720 didn't want to just give it like a super peripheral sort of skim the surface type of thing. So here's the 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:22.180 deal. I'm talking about an article by a guy named Ben Thompson who runs Stratechery, 00:15:22.180 --> 00:15:27.740 which is a really great resource for understanding the business side of software. So super, super 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:33.000 interesting work that he's doing there. And this one's called AWS, MongoDB and the economic realities 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:41.780 of open source. Yeah. And he also runs a podcast called exponent and exponent is sort of the audio 00:15:41.780 --> 00:15:48.280 side. He does this with another guy named James and I'm linking to an hour long episode. He did on 00:15:48.280 --> 00:15:53.700 this called inverted pyramids, which talks about demand and building platforms and things like that. 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:58.840 So really interesting interplay between open source cloud computing and so on, but it focused on this 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:06.240 disagreement at a business level between MongoDB and AWS. Okay. So MongoDB, they make databases, 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:11.200 right? They make a document database and they have kind of a unique API and they are definitely the 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:16.660 most popular of the document databases, regardless of whether you like MongoDB or not. Certainly 00:16:16.660 --> 00:16:22.960 they are well known and well used in that space, right? In the document DB space. If you're not doing 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:30.920 that, you're probably doing Postgres in the Python world, but AWS wanted to have a MongoDB as a service 00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:36.760 type of offering. Like they have RDS and other managed database options, right? They want to have 00:16:36.760 --> 00:16:44.260 basically a MongoDB compatible one, but MongoDB, the company, their business model is basically three 00:16:44.260 --> 00:16:50.240 things. They sell an enterprise version of the on-premise software. That's kind of unrelated to 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:56.800 this. They have a free community version and then they sell this thing called Atlas DB, which is MongoDB 00:16:56.800 --> 00:17:02.800 as a service. And what you do is you go to MongoDB Atlas and you say, I'd like to run this on AWS, 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:07.820 or I'd like to run it on Azure or on Google's cloud. So that's MongoDB's business model. AWS just wants 00:17:07.820 --> 00:17:15.460 just to have a service. So MongoDB, who owns the IP to like the licensing of MongoDB, the server, 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:21.120 changed it to something called AGPL. Have you heard of AGPL? 00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:22.880 Well, I think, but I don't remember what it is. 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:23.960 So you've heard of GPL, right? 00:17:24.460 --> 00:17:29.840 Basically, like if you use this software in yours, then you must make yours open source. 00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:36.580 That's true when you directly depend on it. But what if it's hosted and managed by Amazon and you just 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:41.280 talk to it over the network? You're not interacting with it. You're not using it, right? Well, AGPL is 00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:47.920 like GPL plus network. So if you access this software over the network, it's like the GPL applies to you. 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:56.260 Isn't that weird? So basically what that means is AWS cannot have a hosted MongoDB because if they do, 00:17:56.260 --> 00:18:01.480 it triggers this AGPL and like AWS becomes open source or something crazy like this, right? Like 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:06.680 the consequences are too high and like Apple's banned it from the app store. Google has banned it from all 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:12.660 the AG, any AGPL software basically is not allowed within Google. It's really not something these cloud 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:18.080 companies are interested in having interactions with, right? Because it takes the GPL bit and 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:24.000 doesn't talk about shipping stuff, but accessing over the network. So that brings us to the interesting 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:30.860 part. So what does AWS do? Not just go, okay, great. We keep running Atlas. No, AWS says today, 00:18:30.860 --> 00:18:36.680 they said this on January 9th, today we are launching Amazon DocumentDB with MongoDB compatibility, 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:41.400 a fast, scalable, and highly available database that's designed to be compatible with your existing 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:46.880 MongoDB applications and tools. It's purpose built. It has all this replication, et cetera, 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:52.540 et cetera. And it's all for your production scale, MongoDB workloads. So they took the exact API of 00:18:52.540 --> 00:18:57.460 MongoDB and rebuilt a brand new server and service from it from scratch. 00:18:57.460 --> 00:18:58.600 Okay. Interesting. 00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:02.460 They didn't do it on the latest one because the latest one has the AGPL. So they went back to three, 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:06.620 six, the latest one is like four or five or something like that. So they went back to the latest one, 00:19:06.620 --> 00:19:10.580 the newest one that doesn't have this restriction. They mimicked that, 00:19:10.580 --> 00:19:13.120 which should be good enough actually for most people, I would guess. 00:19:13.120 --> 00:19:14.500 Yeah. Weird. 00:19:14.500 --> 00:19:19.700 Is that interesting? Like you change your license so we can't have it. So we literally copy your API 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:24.820 like bite for bite on the wire identical and rebuild a new service from scratch on it. 00:19:24.820 --> 00:19:30.000 Okay. Both sides are kind of being sneaky and whatever. 00:19:30.120 --> 00:19:38.480 Yes. I feel a little more kinship towards the MongoDB Inc. side because they developed this whole thing from scratch and they built it up and they got it popular. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.740 But yeah, it's definitely an interesting tit and tat. 00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:47.600 But what is the AGPL to air all of Mongo then? What if I build my website? 00:19:47.820 --> 00:20:08.320 Yeah. The community edition is separate for like your self hosting somehow, but there's like clauses about accessing it over the network. Basically it's, you know, very much like the GDPR is like mostly built to fight Google and Facebook, right? This, my understanding is like, basically this is to fight the cloud providers, not meant to interact with regular people just running the community version. 00:20:08.320 --> 00:20:10.940 Okay. But regular people are running on clouds too. 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:12.460 I know. It's quite interesting. 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:17.400 I just would not want to pick a fight with one of these big players, but whatever. 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:31.840 Yeah. So I encourage people to both maybe first listen to the podcast and then read the article if you want to go all in, but you can skim the article. You can't really skim the podcast. I know some people do like 2.5x, but those people are crazy. It melts my brain. I can't do it. 00:20:31.840 --> 00:20:32.720 I do 1.3. 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:38.120 Yeah, that's a pretty good balance. There's layer upon layer. Maybe I'll come to the conclusion real quick. 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.540 So it says, thus we have arrived at a cunardrum for open source companies. 00:20:42.540 --> 00:20:46.940 MongoDB leveraged open source to gain mindshare, right? Started as open source. 00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:57.700 MongoDB Inc. built a successful company selling additional tools for enterprises to run MongoDB, but more and more enterprises don't want to run software easier or not. 00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:04.360 They want to hire AWS or Microsoft or Google or some other cloud provider to run it for them because they value performance and scalability and all that. 00:21:04.940 --> 00:21:11.740 So it leaves MongoDB pretty much like a little bit outside the value chain, which is interesting. 00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:24.340 And there's just a lot of interesting trade-offs for open source VC-funded companies and traditional monetization strategies are looking harder and harder in the face of cloud computing companies that just go, that's a cool API. 00:21:24.340 --> 00:21:24.880 We'll do that. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:25.280 Yeah. 00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:26.260 I told you, lots of layers. 00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:27.540 And I really, I don't know. 00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:28.540 It takes a lot of pondering. 00:21:28.540 --> 00:21:29.680 I really don't know where I am. 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:32.420 But it's, I think it's a big deal, honestly. 00:21:32.420 --> 00:21:33.440 It is a big deal. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.320 For the rest of us, the topic is important. 00:21:36.320 --> 00:21:38.840 Document databases are kind of amazing. 00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:48.180 And I think that we need to push those forward and having legal structures trying to get in the way of making this just better for everybody. 00:21:48.540 --> 00:21:52.400 I know that, like, everybody that started it should be able to make money. 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.520 But also, it needs to move forward. 00:21:55.520 --> 00:21:57.700 So, yeah, there's lots of sides to this. 00:21:57.700 --> 00:21:59.920 There are a lot of angles and a lot of sides. 00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:02.080 And Ben does a super job covering it. 00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:04.080 So, anyway, link to that if that sounds interesting. 00:22:04.080 --> 00:22:04.660 Check it out. 00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:09.480 It's not exactly the newest of news, but I think it's big news still in the open source world. 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:09.840 Okay. 00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:10.100 All right. 00:22:10.100 --> 00:22:11.960 You got some extra stuff for us this week? 00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:21.700 Just that I'm so terrible with names, but the people that do the Teaching Python podcast, I just released an episode of Testing Code where I interviewed them. 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:22.800 Yeah, I saw that come out. 00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:23.200 That's great. 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:23.560 Yeah. 00:22:23.560 --> 00:22:24.580 So, that was cool. 00:22:24.580 --> 00:22:25.860 Do you have any extras? 00:22:25.860 --> 00:22:30.100 I have a couple of extras, just mostly follow-ups and some news. 00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:37.120 So, the folks running PyTexas in Austin, which sounds like a really fun place to be if you couldn't come to PyCascades in Seattle. 00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:41.320 PyTexas 2019 is going to be April 13th and 14th. 00:22:41.380 --> 00:22:44.700 Registration is open, and I'm linking to their page and stuff. 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.020 It looks pretty cool. 00:22:46.020 --> 00:22:46.720 That's one. 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.680 The other is the article we covered from Anthony Shaw last week. 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:55.280 Apparently, it was like two years old, and somebody had sent it to us, so it felt like, oh, yeah, here's a new article from Anthony. 00:22:55.280 --> 00:22:57.940 So, we covered it as if and without any caveats. 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:07.100 So, Anthony Shaw, sorry, we dug up your old, your very far past predictions of the future and then presented them from today, but they're still good. 00:23:07.100 --> 00:23:10.620 I thought it was quite a good article, and it stands the test of time pretty well. 00:23:10.620 --> 00:23:24.240 And finally, remember when I talked about Rust Python and I said the reason this makes me super, super happy, Brian, is that it enables this WebAssembly future of Python because Rust has a very strong WebAssembly story? 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:31.840 Well, on that episode page, one of the core developers posted a comment, said, thanks for covering this. 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:35.580 By the way, rustpython.github.io slash demo. 00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:37.800 Yeah, that's it running in the Web. 00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:40.620 The CPython built on Rust. 00:23:40.620 --> 00:23:44.080 Well, Rust Python running the Web under WebAssembly. 00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:48.360 So, if you open that bad boy up, and boom, it's up and running. 00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:49.340 You can go and type stuff. 00:23:49.340 --> 00:23:50.940 There's not much of a standard library. 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:52.540 That's something we already covered previously. 00:23:52.540 --> 00:23:55.120 So, it's kind of mostly a language level thing. 00:23:55.120 --> 00:24:00.260 But here it is, two megabytes WebAssembly binaries running in your browser. 00:24:00.260 --> 00:24:01.180 It's pretty cool. 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:02.620 That is really pretty cool. 00:24:02.620 --> 00:24:03.280 Yeah. 00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:04.400 Yeah, all right. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.860 So, that's all of it for my extra stuff as well. 00:24:06.860 --> 00:24:07.200 Okay. 00:24:07.280 --> 00:24:08.000 You got a joke for me? 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.100 People are enjoying this joke segment. 00:24:10.100 --> 00:24:11.580 I'm enjoying the joke segment. 00:24:11.580 --> 00:24:12.780 I do not have one. 00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:13.560 Okay, I got two. 00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:14.960 I'll see what you think of these, okay? 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:15.260 Okay. 00:24:15.260 --> 00:24:17.540 Why was the developer unhappy at their job? 00:24:17.540 --> 00:24:18.140 I don't know. 00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:18.400 Why? 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.560 They wanted arrays. 00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:21.500 A-R-R-A-Y-S. 00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:22.000 Arrays. 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:24.200 That's pretty bad. 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.100 That's lists for all the Python people. 00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:26.460 Yes. 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:29.960 Where did the parallel function wash its hands? 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:30.840 I'm not sure where. 00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:31.560 In async. 00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:32.340 A-S. 00:24:32.340 --> 00:24:34.240 Was there a line, or did it have to wait? 00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:37.680 Oh, that's pretty good. 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:38.900 Yeah, these are bad. 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:40.420 These are pretty bad, but here they are. 00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:42.380 No, it's good. 00:24:42.380 --> 00:24:45.700 I have kids, so I'll retell these. 00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:47.620 They won't understand it, but that's all right. 00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:52.000 Yeah, but they'll be in the style in which they should appreciate. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.800 The jokes just won't make sense. 00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:55.200 Yeah. 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:55.980 Anyway. 00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:56.360 Awesome. 00:24:56.360 --> 00:24:56.720 All right. 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.660 Well, welcome back, and thanks for doing the show with me today. 00:24:59.660 --> 00:25:00.280 Yeah, thank you. 00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:00.560 You bet. 00:25:00.560 --> 00:25:02.520 Thank you for listening to Python Bytes. 00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:05.060 Follow the show on Twitter via at Python Bytes. 00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:07.920 That's Python Bytes, as in B-Y-T-E-S. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.160 And get the full show notes at pythonbytes.fm. 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.360 If you have a news item you want featured, just visit pythonbytes.fm and send it our way. 00:25:15.360 --> 00:25:18.060 We're always on the lookout for sharing something cool. 00:25:18.060 --> 00:25:21.180 On behalf of myself and Brian Okken, this is Michael Kennedy. 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:24.600 Thank you for listening and sharing this podcast with your friends and colleagues.