WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.340 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your butts. 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:11.300 This is episode 122, recorded March 20th, 2019. I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:11.300 --> 00:00:12.080 And I'm Brian Okken. 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.340 And this episode is brought to you by DigitalOcean. They have some big news to share with you. I'll 00:00:16.340 --> 00:00:21.080 tell you all about that shortly. Check them out at pythonbytes.fm/digitalocean and get a 00:00:21.080 --> 00:00:26.560 $100 credit for new users. So tell you more about that later. Brian, how are you doing? 00:00:26.560 --> 00:00:31.440 I'm doing good. And if I chuckle, it's because you got your mic up and you kind of look like a 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:34.700 rapper doing the thing. Yeah, I'm going to drop it at the end of this episode. 00:00:34.700 --> 00:00:40.560 Yeah. Anyway, no, people can't see. Yeah. Like, so I've got my microphone on a different stand. So 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.880 we'll see how it sounds. But yeah, I think it's working. All right. Yeah. Nice. All right. So 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:52.080 I find dictionaries sometimes get used in Python, like every now and then people will like make you 00:00:52.080 --> 00:00:56.060 so that's fancy data structure. Yeah, definitely. One of the hard things, 00:00:56.060 --> 00:01:01.140 and I don't have a link to this. Maybe we could drop it. But one of the things you need to do with 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:07.120 dictionaries is pull them apart and put them together and stuff. There's a PEP 584. It's 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.860 had the plus and minus operators to the built in dict class. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I 00:01:11.860 --> 00:01:17.280 mean, we already have it for list. Well, not the minus, but we have the plus list makes sense because 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:24.800 it operators are neat. And the thing that throws me off is the massive difference between if you do 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:29.580 dictionary one plus dictionary two, it's different than dictionary two plus dictionary one, 00:01:29.580 --> 00:01:37.460 because the second thing always wins. Right. If there's duplicate keys, the second one, 00:01:37.460 --> 00:01:40.720 it's going to overwrite the first one. So you're saying that addition might not be 00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.600 commutative. That might be a problem. 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:48.160 Well, maybe, but I mean, like strings are like that. Like if you've got, I don't know, do we do? 00:01:48.160 --> 00:01:52.640 That's true. You don't get the same result of like hello plus world or world plus hello. 00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:58.620 Yeah, exactly. So maybe it's okay. We'll link into the PEP. Actually, I think it's nice because 00:01:58.620 --> 00:02:04.380 if you look at the alternates, the alternates are gross. Like you can unpack both dictionaries and 00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:09.980 then create a new dictionary or you can copy one and then update it with the other that all of those 00:02:09.980 --> 00:02:15.020 are not obvious. And, and so I think plus would be good. So we're going to link to that article, 00:02:15.020 --> 00:02:22.520 but also Guido Van Rossum wrote an article called why operators are useful that partly talks about 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:29.300 this. And then also there's an email link of why apparently one of the options for combining 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:34.800 dictionaries was to use the pipe operator instead of plus. And so I've got a link to that too, but 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:39.820 actually, so this is just a, we don't know if it'll go in, it's in draft status and it just got 00:02:39.820 --> 00:02:43.540 proposed, but I think this is a, would be a neat thing to add to Python. 00:02:43.540 --> 00:02:47.500 Yeah. I'm honestly a little bit surprised. It's not already there. it would be nice. 00:02:47.500 --> 00:02:54.260 I certainly prefer plus over pipe. Like pipe is not something that's commonly used in Python for 00:02:54.260 --> 00:02:58.700 combined stuff. Maybe if this was C or something, I don't know, but, it's certainly in the Python 00:02:58.700 --> 00:03:04.360 world plus seems like a more natural choice here. So this next one comes from Matthew Rockland, 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:09.900 a guy behind ask and other data sciencey things. I recently interviewed him on talk Python, but you 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.520 know, time shifting, it will be in the future when that comes out. But I was, 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.680 reading through some of his articles and found something I thought, you know, well, 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:21.980 at least it's super resonated with me. I don't know how your world is Brian, but mine is like a 00:03:21.980 --> 00:03:30.980 constant stream of like inbound inquiries, requests, comments, like watch the talk Python 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:36.100 Twitter account at my personal Twitter account. We share watching the Python bytes Twitter account. 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:42.160 I have a getter channel. I'm on a couple of slacks. I'm on like Cisco teams or something like this. 00:03:42.160 --> 00:03:49.400 Email is insane. And there's just too many places that stuff comes at me. And I spend like, 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:54.500 there's times where I'll take a week and I'll take a full two days off to just write email and respond 00:03:54.500 --> 00:03:58.100 to messages. And I'm still not all the way caught up. It's like, it's really a problem. 00:03:58.660 --> 00:04:04.400 So when I read this article called why I avoid Slack by Matthew Rocklin, I'm like, Oh, yes, 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.520 this definitely resonates with me. Because when you get that much inbound stuff, like anything that's 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:14.600 transient is super hard to keep track of, right? Like at mentions on Twitter, like maybe I'll catch 00:04:14.600 --> 00:04:19.220 them. But if I don't, like, I'm sorry, but I just, you know, it's I'd lost it. It went by in the stream 00:04:19.220 --> 00:04:26.880 somehow on accident, or something on Slack, right? Like it's 100 messages back. And you know, I dropped 00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:31.120 in there, I didn't check it, marked messages red and left. And now it's just gone, right? It's never 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:36.940 going to come back. So I feel like those kinds of things, while kind of fun and interesting and more 00:04:36.940 --> 00:04:43.560 lively are also, you know, just adding stress and not not really positive. So Matthew wrote this cool 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:49.740 article said, saying why avoid Slack focused on for open source maintainers of projects, 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:55.900 right? Like, should we have a Slack channel for open source project? He says, no. So he says, 00:04:55.900 --> 00:05:01.100 instead of doing something like that, I mean, I guess a Gitter channel would be basically equivalent. 00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:06.900 So as I encourage colleagues to have technical and design conversations on GitHub or some other system 00:05:06.900 --> 00:05:10.280 that is public, permanent, searchable and cross referenceable. What do you think? 00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:16.780 Actually, especially for that case of open source projects, and, and those types of conversations, 00:05:16.780 --> 00:05:18.220 I think I totally agree. 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:22.740 Yeah. So he says, you know, a couple reasons why, like, say, GitHub, public GitHub repos and their 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:27.660 issues and their conversations and PRs and whatnot around it are better than Slack would be because 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:34.100 you can engage collaborators who aren't on Slack, right? Not everyone is on Slack. But if you're working 00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:37.800 with a person who doesn't have a web browser, that's probably okay, you can ignore that person. 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:44.100 But most people can get to the web and they can read, or even Google search and then find some kind 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:49.360 of thing. Also, you can record the conversation, because it sounds like his life's a little bit 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:55.080 like mine, like, hey, everybody just needs a couple of minutes of your time, every couple minutes, 00:05:55.080 --> 00:05:59.020 you know, and it completely derails any form of productivity. 00:05:59.420 --> 00:06:04.500 Yeah, so it's super hard. And the reason is, they'll drop in a Slack channel or some other 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:08.960 conversation and go, hey, why is it like this? Or just quick question about that. And it's like, 00:06:08.960 --> 00:06:14.640 if you have it in an issue and discussed or something, you can say, that's issue 17725. 00:06:14.640 --> 00:06:19.660 We talked about it for a week. Here's a whole detail, right? Also, you can serve the silent 00:06:19.660 --> 00:06:24.520 majority. That is people who go to Google, and they type in a thing and say, I need help with this 00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:29.920 thing. Or why does this work that way? GitHub ranks super high on Google. And those issues 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.380 often come up and you can see the whole conversation. 00:06:32.380 --> 00:06:33.520 Oh, that's a great idea. 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:39.720 Yeah, the other one is encourage more thoughtful discourse. So if you're writing like one on one 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.920 or a couple of people on a Slack channel, you're willing to just throw out kind of quick, 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.800 off the cuff comments. If you're writing in a public permanent forum that's associated with 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.520 your GitHub profile, it's much more likely that you're going to write something thoughtful. And 00:06:53.520 --> 00:06:58.440 finally, you get a cross reference issues. So you can say we talked about part of it here and part of 00:06:58.440 --> 00:07:01.960 it over there and this other issue. And then there was this PR and then we're bringing it back here. 00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:07.820 Slack is siloed. You can't cross reference people and conversations and things like that. So here's a 00:07:07.820 --> 00:07:15.420 call to say enjoy Slack, chat in Slack, but don't use Slack for design decisions and other stuff, 00:07:15.420 --> 00:07:20.420 right? Like maintainers come and go. Maybe you want to have a history of these things and not just a 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:21.600 transient chat stream. 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.220 Yeah. And the bigger a Slack channel gets, the more useful it is in some respects. You get answers 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:33.320 really quickly. But also the more it reflects like kind of just a topical party at somebody's house 00:07:33.320 --> 00:07:34.920 with lots of conversations going on. 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.500 Right. There was a cool chat about this thing on the couch, but that doesn't, that's not the same as 00:07:38.500 --> 00:07:40.840 like we wrote up our thoughts on that thing. 00:07:40.840 --> 00:07:42.860 Yeah, exactly. I'll have to read this. 00:07:42.860 --> 00:07:46.920 Yeah, it's pretty good. It's not much longer than actually what I talked about, but it's still 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:47.720 really helpful, I think. 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:47.960 Yeah. 00:07:47.960 --> 00:07:49.040 What's the next one you got for us? 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.960 That reminds me, actually. No, I had a leak in my memory. No, that's bad. 00:07:52.960 --> 00:07:57.060 That's pretty good, actually. It's so bad it's good. I like it. 00:07:57.060 --> 00:08:04.560 There's an article from Zendesk from YQO that's called Hunting for Memory Leaks in Python 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:11.100 and we've covered memory leak stuff before, but I really like this write-up. And it's specifically, 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:18.420 they've got, Zendesk has a bunch of machine learning in Python written. And one of the problems they run 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:24.240 into is some of them will have really big memory spikes or memory leaks, and they want to try to 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:30.380 figure that out. So this was a specific use case. So he's not covering all of the options, just some of 00:08:30.380 --> 00:08:35.180 the tools that were used there. And I think it's cool. I didn't know some of these things were around. 00:08:35.180 --> 00:08:42.000 So there's a, for example, there's a combination of the memory profiler package with matplotlib 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:48.660 where you can easily run, without doing anything to your code, you can run some Python code and then 00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:54.880 get a visual graph of the memory utilization, which was cool. If you're hunting into stuff and trying to 00:08:54.880 --> 00:09:00.320 break things around, there was a discussion of using, adding some code to your code to use, 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.820 it looks like Muppi, M-U-P-P-I. 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:03.480 Yeah, Muppi. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:09.760 That will dump, heap dump in certain places. So if you, if you think, sometimes time really doesn't 00:09:09.760 --> 00:09:13.580 help you too much, but you can add certain places where you think you're at a stable state, 00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:18.200 doing a heap dump, especially if it's somewhere, something that's looping, you might be able to 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:25.800 catch something there. A reference to object graph or object graph to profile memory object lineage. 00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:27.980 So objects that create other objects. 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:33.180 Yeah, that can be tricky because you've got, maybe you have some object, it's a class and it's got some 00:09:33.180 --> 00:09:37.800 field, that field, it's a list. In that list, it has a bunch of objects. One of those happens to hold on 00:09:37.800 --> 00:09:42.660 to a pointer to some other huge dictionary that you thought like should be gone, but right, there's still 00:09:42.660 --> 00:09:46.780 some reference keeping it alive, right? So this object graph will like tell you that basically. 00:09:46.780 --> 00:09:47.440 Yeah. Nice. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:52.500 Like for example, when he dumped some of the heap dumps, some of those examples, 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:58.420 it's just that you've got like so many megabytes towards strings. Well, I don't know if that really 00:09:58.420 --> 00:10:02.720 helps you too much. Having a, finding out where it came from might be helpful. 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:02.980 Yep. 00:10:02.980 --> 00:10:07.840 And then he ends the article with a, with a bunch of tips, do quick feedback. If you think something, 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:12.700 one of the things I liked, which is probably really good is if you have a memory intensive tasks 00:10:12.700 --> 00:10:17.700 or something you think might be the problem, separate that into a separate process so you 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:22.980 can debug it separately. The Python built-in PDB has a bunch of stuff that can help you as 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:28.920 well. And then also watch out for leaky packages because the leak might not be in yours. It might 00:10:28.920 --> 00:10:30.280 be in your dependencies. 00:10:30.280 --> 00:10:33.060 Yeah. You might've pip installed a memory leak for sure. 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.620 Which I was surprised that he said, for example, pandas. And I'm like, really? Pandas is like, 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:43.220 must be tested the heck out of it. But apparently there's some known pandas problems in some corner 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:44.340 cases, but oh well. 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:50.040 Yeah. It probably is kind of tricky with like the C layer holding onto PI object references and all 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:51.440 sorts of funkiness. Right. 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:55.860 My first reaction to dealing with memory in Python is like, well, we're not supposed to have to, 00:10:55.860 --> 00:11:00.620 so it must be a real pain in the rear. But these tools don't look that bad to work with if you need 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:00.840 to. 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:07.420 This object graph looks really cool. And it will actually create a PNG visual graph of the 00:11:07.420 --> 00:11:12.720 relationships, which is cool. And you can even ask for back references. Like it seems like this is the 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.500 thing that has all the memory. It should be gone, but why is it not garbage collected or cleaned up? 00:11:17.660 --> 00:11:24.180 And you can say, draw me a graph or not a, like a mathematical graph, not a parabola type graph, 00:11:24.180 --> 00:11:28.640 a graph theory graph of all the back references to this object, which is pretty cool. 00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:28.840 Oh, nice. 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:30.660 Yeah. So you can ask it in both directions. 00:11:30.660 --> 00:11:34.080 Yeah. Right. If you think it should have been deleted and it's not, it's because somebody's 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:34.880 still referencing it. 00:11:34.880 --> 00:11:37.860 Right. So who is that? Tell me about that. I need to know about that right now. 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:38.140 Yeah. 00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:41.980 Yeah. That looks really cool. It's definitely something I'd like to explore. Actually, 00:11:41.980 --> 00:11:45.520 let me rephrase that. I don't want to explore it. I don't want to have memory leaks, 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:47.320 but if I do, I will find it very useful. 00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:48.420 Yes, definitely. 00:11:48.420 --> 00:11:53.820 There you go. Also useful, DigitalOcean. Let me tell you a cool thing that they just released. 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:57.180 And this came from one of the listeners. They sent me a message like, Hey, this looks really 00:11:57.180 --> 00:12:02.340 cool. Do you know about this? So they announced this thing called the DigitalOcean Marketplace. 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:08.160 So the idea is that different companies and other people can create these pre-configured 00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:13.360 virtual machines. And then you can just do one click app, install them. Like if you want a ghost 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:17.680 ghost blog server configured with Nginx and all that, you just click ghost blog server, 00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:20.200 pay your $5 and now you have one. 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:20.560 Nice. 00:12:20.640 --> 00:12:28.200 Or maybe you want like GitLab Enterprise, a MongoDB server, or even you can say, I want a Django server. And it'll give you Django, 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:34.000 Nginx, Gunicorn, Postgres, CertBot, a whole bunch of stuff pre-configured all to work together like in a few seconds. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:34.900 That's pretty cool, right? 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:35.680 Yeah, definitely. 00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:40.220 Yeah, yeah. So I think this is a really nice feature. You know, it's already great to run 00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:45.120 infrastructure there. And now if you can like get it much closer to the end, it's a little bit, 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:49.260 I'm sure it's a Docker inspired, right? It seems like that, but for their infrastructure. 00:12:49.260 --> 00:12:53.140 You still have to figure all that stuff out and to be able to throw a few dollars to the people 00:12:53.140 --> 00:12:55.240 who are willing to do the work to put it together. That's great. 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:55.860 Yeah, it's beautiful. 00:12:55.860 --> 00:13:02.040 All right. So check them out over at pythonbytes.fm/DigitalOcean, create an account. And then once you 00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:07.260 get into your account, there's a little marketplace tab over there. So super cool. So speaking of Docker 00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:14.920 and all these other things, there's a cool article by Craig Kirstens, and it's called Give Me My Monolith 00:13:14.920 --> 00:13:20.920 Back, or Give Me Back My Monolith, as opposed to a whole bunch of microservices, right? So there's 00:13:20.920 --> 00:13:28.100 been a lot of hype, excitement, I don't know, take your, choose your side of the fence around microservices. 00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:34.220 And this is the idea of like, yeah, you have a web app, and it's got like 500 Python files, 00:13:34.220 --> 00:13:38.840 and maybe it's doing all these different things. And wouldn't it be better if we could take the credit 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:45.240 card processing and make it its own service with its own database? If we could make the caching its own 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:50.980 service, its user accounts, its own service, all that kind of stuff. And then that user account part is 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:56.040 super simple, right? Because the whole purpose of this application is, who are you? What can you do? 00:13:56.040 --> 00:13:58.760 Can you log in? Can you reset your password? Or something like this, right? 00:13:58.760 --> 00:14:02.220 This seems good, yeah? Yeah. There's a lot of really good uses for this. Like, 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:08.180 if you have a large team of people working on a large web app, it might make more sense to break 00:14:08.180 --> 00:14:13.020 into these small pieces and have some people in charge of each piece. I think that actually 00:14:13.020 --> 00:14:16.980 legitimately makes a lot of sense. It's easy to bring on a junior developer who can say, 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:21.200 all right, I'm going to work on this caching bit or whatever. And I don't have to know the whole 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:25.840 thing. I just got to work on my little API. It does court, async or whatever it does. 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.880 That makes a lot of sense. But most people who are working on web apps aren't in that space of having 00:14:30.880 --> 00:14:35.380 like 30 people on their team, right? That's really rare, right? You've gone down this rant of you're 00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:39.280 not Google, you're not Facebook, you're not LinkedIn, right? You don't need all these patterns because you 00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:46.580 are not them. You're a little relatively smaller company or project. Anyway, this guy feels like, 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:52.000 you know, that adds a lot of complexity and challenges. And he lays them out of like, 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.880 why does the world have to be so hard? Wasn't it easy before? And now it's not, 00:14:56.880 --> 00:15:02.260 not from the article, but just a thought of mine. Like when I think of this microservice architecture, 00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:07.840 what you're doing is you're taking code complexity, and you're moving it to infrastructure complexity. 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:08.800 Yeah, definitely. 00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:15.120 Instead of having one kind of complicated bit of code, I now have 12 super simple bits of code, 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:20.300 but they all have to work together in like fairly complicated network environments, failover, 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:26.200 you know, all this kind of stuff, this topography and whatnot. So my thought is at least, you know, 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.160 like, well, which of those two things are you good at? Infrastructure or code? You know, 00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:34.540 that drives a lot of these decisions. But he runs down a couple of things that he said 00:15:34.540 --> 00:15:41.840 used to be simple, but now we get to revisit them, get to. So setup went from like chemistry to quantum 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:48.480 mechanics. A lot of this has to do with bringing new people onto a team or junior developers and things 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:53.220 like that. So it says, onboarding a new engineer, at least for the initial environment used to be like 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:58.760 half a day. And now we've ventured into microservices, this onboarding time is skyrocketed, 00:15:58.760 --> 00:16:04.500 and it's super complicated for them to understand all the moving pieces. And then the next one, 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.820 is so long for understanding our systems. You know, back when we had monolithic apps, 00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:13.540 you had an error, it had a stack trace, you click on the hyperlink generated by your little 00:16:13.540 --> 00:16:20.040 editor to take you to the line where the stack trace is. And now you have different services that 00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:24.060 talk to another service that cue something on a message bus that another service pulls it out, 00:16:24.060 --> 00:16:29.340 and then you get an error. What caused that? Right? How do you try? How do you follow that through? 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:33.840 How do you debug that? So it says, well, if we can't debug them, maybe we can test them talks 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.960 about the challenges of continuous integration, and whatnot, but also talks about some services 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:43.280 that were made into some apps that were made into microservice that are now moving back, 00:16:43.280 --> 00:16:48.720 sort of in a reverse migration to these monoliths. And, you know, I got to say, I'm pretty sympathetic 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:54.120 with this. Like I see the value of microservices, but I also know that I'm not Google. 00:16:54.120 --> 00:17:00.220 Right? And so, yeah, anyway, for me, I don't think this whole microservice world makes as much 00:17:00.220 --> 00:17:02.940 sense in my space, but I don't know. What do you think? 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:05.340 We should go back to HTML and Perl. 00:17:05.340 --> 00:17:10.460 That's right. Can't we just have static files? All this like logic is bust in your brain. 00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:12.300 CGI used to be easy. No. 00:17:12.300 --> 00:17:14.500 No, it actually was never, ever easy. 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:19.300 I think that there's different ways to solve problems. And I think that making sure that 00:17:19.300 --> 00:17:23.660 you're paying attention to it, I think is a good, good idea. And make sure that people understand 00:17:23.660 --> 00:17:31.740 that microservices are a, are sometimes it's a funny, funny, it's a shiny new thing to go learn. And, 00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:37.660 and sometimes that's not bad if you're willing to take on the risks, but, but it is a changing 00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:40.460 from what you know to what you don't know is a risk. 00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:45.140 So it's definitely exciting. I mean, you can bring in Docker and Kubernetes and do all sorts of fun stuff, 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:48.520 but at the same time, just be aware of the trade-offs you're making. 00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:51.780 Some of the things that it's solved are now solved by Async. 00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:52.900 Yeah, that's true. Absolutely. 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:57.380 One of the things also is if you're in a single language or not. So one of the things that 00:17:57.380 --> 00:18:02.260 microservices gives you is the different teams can do whatever language they want, as long as they 00:18:02.260 --> 00:18:05.220 provide an interface that's compatible with everybody. 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:10.500 The authentication bits in Node.js, the caching tiers and something else. And you know, 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:12.100 the front ends in Python or whatever. 00:18:12.100 --> 00:18:13.140 Yeah, definitely. 00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:18.640 Yeah. Makes sense. Again, it's not something you will do that often when you're just a couple of people, 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.200 but if you're a big team or set of teams, then sure. 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:22.040 Makes a lot of sense. 00:18:22.040 --> 00:18:22.280 Yeah. 00:18:22.280 --> 00:18:29.200 All right. So I know of some famous laws and rules in software development, like the solid principles, 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:34.040 single responsibility principle, open, close principle. These are all good. You found some more 00:18:34.040 --> 00:18:35.860 amusing ones, didn't you? 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:41.480 Yeah. Some of them are serious and some are amusing. All of them have kind of a little bit of truth. 00:18:41.740 --> 00:18:48.280 And this is an older article, so I'm not really sure how I got a hold of it, but it's the famous laws of software development. 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:57.080 And there are 13 listed. I think I counted that many. I'm not going to read all 13. I guess it was written in 2017. It's not that old. 00:18:57.740 --> 00:19:07.380 But okay, so Hofstetter's law, which is great. It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstetter's law. So it's self-referencing. 00:19:07.520 --> 00:19:11.060 I love it. Yeah, I love it. There's some many good ones here. 00:19:11.060 --> 00:19:22.840 So that's just funny. There's Conway's law, which it's not supposed to be funny, but it's sometimes depressing. Any piece of software reflects the organizational structure that produced it. 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:24.040 Yeah, I think that's true. 00:19:24.040 --> 00:19:47.320 Like microservices are great for lots of teams. One team, one monolith or something. I don't know. But I've seen that before. Also, the hierarchy of different teams shows up in the software as well. And then, of course, a couple more I'd like to point out. The peer principle. In any hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:54.960 Sounds like a quote from the despair, Inc. calendars or posters. That's great. 00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:02.220 Yeah. And then the 90-90 rule, which I haven't actually heard before, but it's just hilarious. Have you heard this before? 00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:02.620 No. 00:20:02.620 --> 00:20:08.720 The first 90% of the code takes 10% of the time. The remaining 10% takes the other 90% of the time. 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:15.860 That sounds about right to me. Yeah, it's definitely, it feels like things just drag on and on right at the end of these projects. 00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:30.780 So, the comments are good too. I noticed that some people, a guy named Corey threw in a thing and said, I'm shocked that Cunningham's Law isn't on the list. Cunningham's Law. The fastest way to get help over the internet is not to ask a question, but instead to answer it wrong. 00:20:30.780 --> 00:20:37.640 And then someone also responds, maybe its omission was a conscious choice to invoke it. 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:39.920 That's awesome. 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.080 Yeah, it's really good. There's a bunch of nice ones in there. 00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:48.520 Yeah, that's like real though. I mean, the best way to get people to help you on the internet is to start blogging the wrong stuff. 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:53.300 Yeah, enable comments and start writing. That's cool. 00:20:54.060 --> 00:21:01.580 I got a quick one to round it out here. We talked about a plugin architecture before for building plugins that ran like within your app. 00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:09.440 So, basically, ways to let people interface like simple bits of code into your other systems and version plugins and all that. 00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:13.540 There's another one called beer garden plugins, which is pretty fun. 00:21:13.540 --> 00:21:15.060 One of the listeners suggested this. 00:21:15.060 --> 00:21:19.280 So, the idea is it's a framework that will convert your functions. 00:21:19.280 --> 00:21:21.500 These are like regular Python scripts. 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:24.980 They don't know anything about the web or plugins or whatever. 00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:32.440 Convert those into composable, discoverable, production-ready services, as in RESTful HTTP services with minimal overhead. 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:42.280 So, if you have a class, you can just go say this is a system and then the functions on the class, you go these are services and they take these parameters and you describe what they take, things like that. 00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:45.120 And it will just go serve that. 00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:51.080 And it even does cool stuff like it does swagger documentation of the services and whatnot. 00:21:51.080 --> 00:21:57.020 So, yeah, it's a pretty interesting little quick way to convert code that was not meant to be a service into services. 00:21:57.020 --> 00:21:57.960 Oh, very cool. 00:21:57.960 --> 00:21:58.240 Yeah. 00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:59.340 It's pretty cool. 00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:04.280 It's apparently based on MongoDB, RabbitMQ, and it supports modern Python. 00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:05.500 So, that's pretty cool. 00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:07.820 It talks about what you have to do to get it running. 00:22:07.820 --> 00:22:13.220 Or, something that's kind of nice, is it also comes in a Docker and Docker Compose form. 00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:21.280 So, you can just clone the Docker Compose bit from GitHub and then you say Docker Compose up and now it's up and running. 00:22:21.280 --> 00:22:24.440 And then you can give it these little apps and whatnot. 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:24.920 It's pretty cool. 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:25.320 Nice. 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:25.600 Yeah. 00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:29.820 So, I think the idea is you run your code and it plugs into the server there. 00:22:29.820 --> 00:22:30.260 So, yeah. 00:22:30.260 --> 00:22:31.660 Anyway, it's pretty neat. 00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:34.440 People can check that out if that sounds like something they're looking for. 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:35.200 All right. 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.380 Well, that's it for official items. 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.640 Anything else you want to cover here at the end? 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.680 Just had a really cool interview the other day. 00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:51.140 This will go out as Test Encode 69, which should be available for everybody before you listen to this. 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:56.740 But it was with Andy Hunt, who is now at the head of Pragmatic Programmer. 00:22:56.740 --> 00:22:57.420 I mean... 00:22:57.420 --> 00:22:57.540 Yeah. 00:22:57.540 --> 00:22:59.680 He's one of the original founders of it, right? 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.180 Him and one other guy, I think. 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:01.440 Yeah. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:01.660 Is that right? 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:04.520 Andy Hunt and Dave Thomas wrote the Pragmatic Programmer. 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.520 And that was released in 99. 00:23:06.520 --> 00:23:09.620 And then in 2003, they formed their own publishing company. 00:23:09.620 --> 00:23:11.040 And they've been going strong. 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:13.380 And the pytest book was under their publishing company. 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:19.640 And so now Dave doesn't play an active role in the publishing anymore, but Andy does. 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.700 And so it's a really cool conversation. 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:25.860 Andy was also one of the original signers of the Agile Manifesto. 00:23:25.860 --> 00:23:27.780 And so we talk a lot about... 00:23:27.780 --> 00:23:28.100 Oh, right. 00:23:28.100 --> 00:23:28.740 That's cool. 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:29.080 Yeah. 00:23:29.080 --> 00:23:31.780 We talk a lot about that and quite a few other things. 00:23:31.780 --> 00:23:33.880 So that's a fun thing to listen to. 00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:34.160 Excellent. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:35.960 I'm definitely going to check it out when you release it. 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:36.500 That's a good one. 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:36.880 How about you? 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.080 So I have two quick things to share with you. 00:23:39.080 --> 00:23:42.200 First, there's this thing called Firefox Send. 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:43.460 Have you heard of this? 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:44.200 I have not. 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:44.520 Yeah. 00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:49.060 So Firefox Send is actually not something built into Firefox, but it's more like a Mozilla 00:23:49.060 --> 00:23:50.900 project to make the web better, right? 00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:58.680 So here's what it does is it lets you share files securely, large files, like up to two and 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:00.040 a half gigs per file. 00:24:00.780 --> 00:24:09.160 And it does end to end encryption, where the decryption key is actually stored in the 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:09.480 URL. 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:14.380 So if you don't share the URL, like even the Firefox Send people can't decrypt it or whatever. 00:24:14.380 --> 00:24:14.940 Okay. 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:15.820 Interesting. 00:24:15.820 --> 00:24:21.320 So basically, it's a way to serve these files around like without putting it into Dropbox 00:24:21.320 --> 00:24:26.740 or OneDrive or Google Drive or whatever, where it's like permanently there, it's going to be 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:27.340 backed up. 00:24:27.340 --> 00:24:30.740 It's, you know, who knows like if you would ever truly delete that thing, right? 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:35.700 Whereas here, the maximum life of one of these files is seven days. 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:39.920 And you can even say it can only be downloaded one time and delete it in an hour or something 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:40.380 like that. 00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.420 And of course, the encryption key is not stored with the Firefox folks. 00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:47.500 So like if it gets lost, you know, it's not that big of a deal. 00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:47.940 Interesting. 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:49.340 I'll have to check that out. 00:24:49.340 --> 00:24:49.480 Yeah. 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:50.700 It's a free, quick little thing. 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:55.440 You can either sign in and have a larger, larger file options or smaller ones if you want to 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.640 say and stay anonymous. 00:24:56.840 --> 00:24:59.140 But yeah, definitely, I think it fills a cool need. 00:24:59.140 --> 00:25:03.220 And it's kind of nice to see Mozilla just, you know, making the web better in that way. 00:25:03.220 --> 00:25:05.340 And it's, it doesn't depend on Firefox. 00:25:05.340 --> 00:25:07.300 It just happens to be made by them. 00:25:07.300 --> 00:25:07.580 Okay. 00:25:07.580 --> 00:25:07.920 Nice. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:10.900 Speaking of making stuff better, do you know what I really hate? 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:17.300 I hate going to weather.com and I'm saying, oh, it looks like you're running an ad blocker. 00:25:17.300 --> 00:25:22.900 We want to serve you crap ads from an ad network and that may have malicious content and 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:23.740 JavaScript in it. 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:25.160 So please whitelist us. 00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:31.640 And every time I see that, I think if you, and these are not small little blogs or like 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.240 little article sites. 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:38.220 These are CNN, the weather channel, like major, major places. 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:38.460 Right. 00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:43.180 And I always think, you know, look, if you want to serve ads to me, why don't you do it on 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:51.200 a system that is not broken on a way that will not put my computer and my information and everything 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.280 else at risk? 00:25:52.780 --> 00:25:59.000 You could easily talk to your sponsors, put an image on your site, let people click on 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.420 it and it takes them to their offer. 00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:03.820 But no, they want to run, you know, all sorts of retargeting and tracking. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:09.880 And they want to figure out like, oh, are you, you are, are you a woman who is 36, who is 00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:11.540 also search for this, right? 00:26:11.540 --> 00:26:12.300 Like it's really shady. 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:20.840 So this is not a change for us, but this is more of a make it explicit for us on pythonbytes.fm 00:26:20.840 --> 00:26:22.340 and also talk python.fm. 00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:24.040 We don't pop up these. 00:26:24.040 --> 00:26:25.460 Hey, it looks like you're running an ad blocker. 00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:26.280 Please stop it. 00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:31.740 Because our ads still show when there's an ad blocker, because all they are is images. 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:33.200 We're not trying to retarget anyone. 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:33.680 Isn't that cool? 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:34.480 That is very cool. 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:34.900 Yeah. 00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:35.140 Yeah. 00:26:35.300 --> 00:26:40.520 So there's this move I've seen on the internet to talk, just sort of a pushback on that to 00:26:40.520 --> 00:26:42.040 say, no, these are ethical ads. 00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:44.600 You know, you see this on read the docs and other places. 00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:48.320 So I put a little note under our ad saying, these ads are served ethically. 00:26:48.320 --> 00:26:49.180 We don't track you. 00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:50.860 We don't retarget you. 00:26:50.860 --> 00:26:51.640 We don't do anything. 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:53.520 But here's our sponsor. 00:26:53.520 --> 00:26:56.840 If you like it, if you like the product, you want to support us, click on it. 00:26:56.840 --> 00:27:01.320 And that will, that will, they'll know that you came from us because of the URL. 00:27:01.320 --> 00:27:02.640 And that's all you need, right? 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:07.440 So I really wish all these places that say, please whitelist us instead said, could we 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.340 have a better business model where we don't have to track people and do all sorts of nefarious 00:27:12.340 --> 00:27:12.640 stuff? 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:14.240 So we're opting out. 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:14.740 Good job. 00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:14.940 Yeah. 00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:15.320 Thanks. 00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:15.760 All right. 00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:19.000 Well, I believe it's time to laugh a little bit. 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:20.400 Yeah. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.280 All right. 00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:21.660 Go first. 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:24.760 I really like this joke that Derek Chambers submitted. 00:27:24.760 --> 00:27:31.180 It is, what do you call it when a Python programmer refuses to implement custom objects? 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:31.680 What's that? 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:32.120 I don't know. 00:27:32.120 --> 00:27:33.300 Self-deprivation. 00:27:33.300 --> 00:27:37.080 And then he adds, sorry, that joke was really classless. 00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:39.000 Yeah, that's pretty good. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:39.400 I love it. 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.140 The classless, classless Python. 00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:41.940 Cool. 00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:43.420 So I have another one for you. 00:27:43.420 --> 00:27:48.520 And I'm, I pretty much have an infinite supply of these now that I've pip X installed PyJokes. 00:27:48.520 --> 00:27:49.100 Okay. 00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:53.860 So I ran this before our episode and this one came up, said, I had a problem. 00:27:53.860 --> 00:27:54.920 So I thought I'd use Java. 00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:56.700 Now I have a problem factory. 00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:00.540 I love it. 00:28:00.540 --> 00:28:03.340 Anyway, that's, that's the jokes. 00:28:03.340 --> 00:28:08.380 And if you, if you find yourself wanting more jokes between now and the next episode release, 00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:12.580 you can always pip X install PyJokes and, you know, get your fix on the command line. 00:28:12.580 --> 00:28:12.940 Yeah. 00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:14.020 Oh, here's one more. 00:28:14.020 --> 00:28:14.400 Okay. 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.520 I just ran it. 00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:16.660 I got to do this one also. 00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:19.320 There's only two hard problems in computer science. 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:22.560 Cash invalidation, naming things and off by one errors. 00:28:22.560 --> 00:28:24.060 Nice. 00:28:24.060 --> 00:28:25.120 Yeah. 00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:26.940 There's good jokes in that PyJokes set. 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:27.700 I love it. 00:28:27.700 --> 00:28:27.940 Yeah. 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:29.160 There's not an infinite number. 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.080 So people still keep sending us jokes. 00:28:31.080 --> 00:28:31.600 We love them. 00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:31.900 Yeah. 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:33.220 We're going to hit the limit eventually. 00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:35.880 It's got to happen, but definitely fun. 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.340 So thank you for sending that in Derek and Brian. 00:28:38.340 --> 00:28:39.900 Thanks for doing this with me as every week. 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:40.120 Yep. 00:28:40.120 --> 00:28:40.600 Thank you. 00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:40.900 You bet. 00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:41.400 Talk to you later. 00:28:41.780 --> 00:28:43.320 Thank you for listening to Python Bytes. 00:28:43.320 --> 00:28:45.860 Follow the show on Twitter via at Python Bytes. 00:28:45.860 --> 00:28:48.700 That's Python Bytes as in B-Y-T-E-S. 00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:51.940 And get the full show notes at pythonbytes.fm. 00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:56.160 If you have a news item you want featured, just visit pythonbytes.fm and send it our way. 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:58.860 We're always on the lookout for sharing something cool. 00:28:58.860 --> 00:29:01.980 On behalf of myself and Brian Okken, this is Michael Kennedy. 00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:05.400 Thank you for listening and sharing this podcast with your friends and colleagues.