WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:04.760 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:04.760 --> 00:00:10.380 This is episode 277, recorded March 28th, 2022. 00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:11.920 And I am Brian Okken. 00:00:11.920 --> 00:00:13.340 I am Michael Kennedy. 00:00:13.340 --> 00:00:14.800 And I'm Thomas Geiger. 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:19.120 Welcome, Thomas. Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on and being a guest. 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.700 Can you tell us a little bit about you? 00:00:21.700 --> 00:00:25.600 Thanks, Brian. And thanks, Michael. Big fan, so it's an honor being here. 00:00:26.060 --> 00:00:31.620 I'm the creator and maintainer of the PyPro Task Runner, which it so happens you discussed last week. 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:34.720 So I come in riding on AtWave. 00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:36.280 Yeah. 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:39.080 Yeah, very cool projects. Congrats on it. 00:00:39.080 --> 00:00:39.740 Thank you very much. 00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:42.380 Well, so, Michael, it's March. 00:00:42.380 --> 00:00:46.000 It is March. It's like March Madness, right? 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:46.580 Yeah. 00:00:46.580 --> 00:00:52.680 So Chris May sent in this thing that says, hey, Python Bytes people, here's a fun thing to cover. 00:00:52.680 --> 00:00:54.820 For March Madness, but for Python. 00:00:54.820 --> 00:01:05.340 And for those of you who are not college basketball fans and follow it carefully, March Madness is basically the playoffs for the college basketball. 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:07.100 And it's single elimination. 00:01:07.100 --> 00:01:09.540 You start with 16, I think. 00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:11.680 And then every team plays another one. 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.220 Then it's down to eight, then down to four, and so on. 00:01:13.220 --> 00:01:15.380 So that's the idea, but for Python. 00:01:15.380 --> 00:01:16.020 Oh. 00:01:16.380 --> 00:01:17.440 And check it here. 00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:18.380 We have round one. 00:01:18.380 --> 00:01:21.420 I guess it starts with 32 and then 16 and so on. 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:23.280 So we've got these different rounds. 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:28.960 And some of the rounds have already occurred, but the winner, the champion, is still yet to be crowned. 00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:31.280 So you all need to get out there and vote. 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:32.480 I'll tell you how in a second. 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.720 A bit amazed NumPy is outdoing pytest there. 00:01:37.220 --> 00:01:39.040 It's outdoing it pretty handily. 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:40.460 I mean, it did outdo it, right? 00:01:40.460 --> 00:01:43.580 So if you go here, what you see is this tournament bracket. 00:01:43.580 --> 00:01:46.220 And the first ones were like NumPy versus Redis. 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:48.780 And NumPy won. 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:52.580 And then pytest versus LXML, Parser. 00:01:52.580 --> 00:01:54.260 And pytest won that one handily. 00:01:54.260 --> 00:01:58.360 And then NumPy and pytest had to face off. 00:01:58.660 --> 00:02:04.620 And as Thomas said, surprisingly, NumPy pretty badly beat up on pytest. 00:02:04.620 --> 00:02:06.060 Brian, are you okay with this? 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:06.560 How are you feeling? 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.060 I didn't get to vote, so I'm not sure how this was done. 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:10.900 Yeah. 00:02:10.900 --> 00:02:16.000 This is going to be the start of a long blood feud between the NumPy community and pytest. 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:23.260 Well, and the other part of this story I'm telling, the other side of the bracket was Psykit-learn versus Beautiful Soup. 00:02:23.260 --> 00:02:26.320 And Beautiful Soup, oh my gosh, I think it was a buzzer beater. 00:02:26.440 --> 00:02:31.260 It came in at the last second, and it's like 52% to 48%, Beautiful Soup won. 00:02:31.260 --> 00:02:35.440 And so now this week, we're in the Elite Eight. 00:02:35.440 --> 00:02:37.780 And so you can come and vote. 00:02:37.780 --> 00:02:38.380 I'm going to vote. 00:02:38.380 --> 00:02:43.520 Like my metric here is sort of how useful and how impactful is this thing? 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.880 Not necessarily do I like it better. 00:02:44.880 --> 00:02:46.360 So I'm going to vote over here. 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:48.980 I'm going to say for NumPy versus Beautiful Soup, NumPy. 00:02:48.980 --> 00:02:53.140 I actually would use Beautiful Soup probably more, but I think NumPy is more impactful. 00:02:53.140 --> 00:02:56.180 Pip versus Matplotlib, I'll pip all day long. 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:57.200 Same reason. 00:02:57.200 --> 00:02:58.860 Pandas versus Docker. 00:02:58.860 --> 00:02:59.860 Ooh. 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:01.780 Ooh, I do like me some Docker. 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:02.640 I'm going with Pandas. 00:03:02.640 --> 00:03:04.520 And then Wheel versus Request. 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:05.420 I'm going to go with Request. 00:03:05.420 --> 00:03:09.780 I know Wheel is important under the covers, but I don't see it, so I don't want to think about it. 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:10.820 So Request, top of mind. 00:03:10.820 --> 00:03:11.380 I use that all the time. 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:17.180 So here you can see I voted, and everyone else who would like to can just click the link in the show notes, and you can vote too. 00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:22.360 And these are basically open for a week, and then the elimination happens, and it moves on. 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.320 So we're going to see what happens in the final four. 00:03:24.320 --> 00:03:25.960 Coming real soon, actually. 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:34.000 Okay, we're going to have to highlight this earlier in the month next year so that people can vote. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.960 You want to create some voting blocks like in the reality TV shows. 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:39.520 The one on the island? 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.380 Survivor? 00:03:41.040 --> 00:03:42.240 Yeah, Survivor, exactly. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:47.800 Oh, you know, I'm sad to say scikit-learn's torch has been extinguished. 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:48.280 Oh, no. 00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:49.820 You're going to have to leave the island. 00:03:49.820 --> 00:03:50.780 Yes, that's right. 00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:53.660 Anyway, thank you, Chris, for sending this in. 00:03:53.660 --> 00:03:57.100 This is fun, and it's very low stakes. 00:03:57.100 --> 00:04:00.160 It's just sort of, you know, people just enjoy this for what it is. 00:04:00.160 --> 00:04:01.660 Yeah, bragging rights and whatnot. 00:04:01.660 --> 00:04:06.020 So we'll send out a tweet or something about it. 00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:07.440 You can get in there and check this out. 00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:08.520 Definitely. 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:10.020 Yeah. 00:04:10.020 --> 00:04:10.600 How about you, Brian? 00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:11.420 What's your next one? 00:04:11.420 --> 00:04:16.420 I'd like to talk about NB Preview, which actually I thought we covered, but I couldn't find it anywhere. 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:22.580 So NB Preview is a notebook previewer, so IPython or Jupyter notebook. 00:04:22.580 --> 00:04:26.400 And it's kind of neat. 00:04:26.400 --> 00:04:30.080 It's a command line thing, and I like to spend a lot of time on the command line. 00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:38.000 So you just, once you pip install it, or since it's not really part of your project, I used pipx. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.340 pipx installed this. 00:04:40.200 --> 00:04:40.440 Oh, yeah. 00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:56.600 But it's so you say NB Preview, and then you can give it some options, but then a notebook file name, and it will, it just previews your notebook in ASCII, which is awesome. 00:04:57.880 --> 00:04:59.600 But it's not just ASCII. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:00.200 It's rich. 00:05:00.200 --> 00:05:04.300 So we've got colors and nice colors and tables and stuff. 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:07.360 There's actually quite a few features that I want to run down. 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:13.120 One of the things I loved right away was it's not just a file. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:19.820 I tried it out on some local files, but you can give it like a URL or something. 00:05:19.820 --> 00:05:22.700 There's a great way to, you can get a whole bunch of stuff. 00:05:22.700 --> 00:05:25.360 You don't have to have local notebook files to put it in. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:25.940 Oh, that's cool. 00:05:26.980 --> 00:05:27.420 Yeah. 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:27.420 So I'm going to see. 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:27.780 Yeah. 00:05:27.780 --> 00:05:27.820 Yeah. 00:05:27.820 --> 00:05:28.420 So I'm going to see. 00:05:28.420 --> 00:05:28.740 Yeah. 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:32.340 Here it's showing even you can curl something and pipe it to it. 00:05:32.340 --> 00:05:34.180 So it'll take inputs as pipes. 00:05:34.320 --> 00:05:39.400 And the fact that it's a command line tool and it deals with pipes correctly is what 00:05:39.400 --> 00:05:40.500 I really like about it. 00:05:40.500 --> 00:05:42.180 So you can pipe a notebook to it. 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:45.520 I don't know if you do that or not, but you might want to pipe output. 00:05:45.520 --> 00:05:51.700 So by default, you get these nice colors, but if you pipe it to an output, you can pipe it 00:05:51.700 --> 00:05:54.400 to grep or something and you can grep for things. 00:05:54.400 --> 00:05:56.520 So this is kind of great. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:06:01.240 I don't know if you've ever tried to grep for something in a notebook, but there's a lot 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:02.260 of junk around it. 00:06:02.260 --> 00:06:05.980 There's a lot of formatting stuff that, and if that's not really what you're looking for, 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:06.740 it's not helpful. 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:08.820 So be having this tool to strip that out. 00:06:08.820 --> 00:06:09.500 It's pretty nice. 00:06:09.500 --> 00:06:10.200 Oh yeah. 00:06:10.200 --> 00:06:11.040 That's really nice. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.500 I love the ability to just pull this up and view them. 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:18.200 And given that it's based on rich, like it has formatting for all the cells. 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:24.840 I mean, Jupyter is like markdown plus code and rich as rich highlighting for both of those. 00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:25.280 So that's cool. 00:06:25.280 --> 00:06:25.540 Yeah. 00:06:25.540 --> 00:06:29.620 It looks like it's got some pigments under the hood also, which happens. 00:06:29.620 --> 00:06:31.200 Ian brought up last week, I think. 00:06:31.200 --> 00:06:31.880 Yeah. 00:06:31.880 --> 00:06:32.580 Yeah, exactly. 00:06:32.580 --> 00:06:34.920 So a lot of continuations said this week. 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:37.880 So a lot of cool stuff that you would expect, like code highlighting and stuff. 00:06:37.880 --> 00:06:43.980 But the thing that like really stood out to me is what does it do with images like graphs 00:06:43.980 --> 00:06:44.620 and stuff? 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:46.680 And the images are kind of amazing. 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:55.860 They're like these, by default, these block things, which not that clear to use for utilities, 00:06:55.860 --> 00:06:58.240 but it kind of shows you what it's going to do. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.000 And there's a few options. 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:04.720 You can do this block level thing. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:06.620 And I like the characters. 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:10.580 So it does like the ASCII art stuff of your images. 00:07:10.580 --> 00:07:14.000 Or it uses the Braille stuff. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:19.780 I don't know if there's an example here, but you can do Braille for all the dots to show up, 00:07:19.780 --> 00:07:21.060 which is kind of neat. 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:23.700 It even does like cool data frame rendering. 00:07:23.700 --> 00:07:31.200 So if you've got a data frame printed out there in your notebook, it'll format it nicely. 00:07:31.200 --> 00:07:36.540 So even LaTeX is formatted, which is kind of a surprise. 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:37.560 I didn't expect that. 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:38.760 So that's kind of neat. 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:44.080 Anyway, specifically, oh, cool, hyperlinks too. 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.340 So you can click on HTML that's in there. 00:07:46.340 --> 00:07:47.020 That's kind of neat. 00:07:47.020 --> 00:07:52.480 The thing that I really like that is the simple part, though, is to be able to strip stuff 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.560 and pipe it to grip and things like that. 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:55.660 So this is handy. 00:07:55.660 --> 00:07:57.160 Nice. 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:58.360 Thomas, what do you think? 00:07:58.360 --> 00:07:59.840 Oh, this is great. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.700 I don't really use notebooks all that much, to be honest with you. 00:08:03.700 --> 00:08:04.980 So it's a little bit lost on me. 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:07.700 But more command line is absolutely good. 00:08:07.700 --> 00:08:10.060 And it looks delicious. 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:12.280 Yeah, it does. 00:08:12.280 --> 00:08:17.920 It's the terminal, the TUIs, the terminal user interfaces are definitely coming on strong 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:18.380 these days. 00:08:18.380 --> 00:08:20.600 We forgot to ask you, what kind of Python do you do? 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.220 What's your flavor of Python? 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:23.960 Are you building APIs? 00:08:23.960 --> 00:08:25.800 Are you doing data science? 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:26.460 What kind? 00:08:26.460 --> 00:08:29.940 Well, the Piper project is what consumes most of my hours. 00:08:30.340 --> 00:08:34.760 So I guess that's normal-ish Python as opposed to notebook-ish Python. 00:08:34.760 --> 00:08:39.960 Data science, I don't really do too much either. 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.100 So it's mostly traditional style Python programming. 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:45.280 Yeah, got it. 00:08:45.280 --> 00:08:45.900 All right. 00:08:45.900 --> 00:08:47.120 Well, your topic is up next. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:47.640 Tell us about it. 00:08:47.640 --> 00:08:50.680 Well, funnily enough, this is very traditional programming. 00:08:50.680 --> 00:08:59.940 What I bring for you for your delectation is PyFakeFS, which I think is a sadly relatively 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.120 unknown open source library. 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:06.080 And I'd like to give them some props and recognition because I think it's amazing. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.860 And it's made a huge difference to me and my own code and the Piper project. 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:12.380 So hopefully this helps out some other people. 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:16.400 Now, what it is, is a fake file system. 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:22.900 So in a nutshell, it intercepts all calls from Python to the actual file system. 00:09:22.900 --> 00:09:29.920 So if you think of the open function, the built-in open, that is, or shutil or pathlib, all of 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:35.260 those that might have real-world side effects in terms of the disk, the fake file system will 00:09:35.260 --> 00:09:36.100 intercept these. 00:09:36.100 --> 00:09:37.740 And this is completely transparent. 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:42.280 And which is to say that your functional code doesn't need to know about this. 00:09:42.280 --> 00:09:48.160 So the patching happens without you needing to inject something or without you needing to go 00:09:48.160 --> 00:09:52.420 and alter your actual code to take countenance of the system. 00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:58.360 Now, what's great about this is the moment you start talking about testing a file system, you're 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:01.660 almost by definition in integration testing or functional testing terrain. 00:10:01.660 --> 00:10:06.340 Like it's not a unit test anymore, which comes with its own disadvantages. 00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:12.000 So if you do want a unit test, then let's consider a simplistic example, right? 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:16.440 If you want to, if your code under test writes an output file. 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.820 So first of all, you need to patch out that if you're in your unit testing framework with 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:21.780 something like mock open. 00:10:21.780 --> 00:10:27.380 But secondly, you probably have a pathlib in there somewhere where you're either creating 00:10:27.380 --> 00:10:31.860 the parent directories for the path to check that they exist before you try and write to 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:32.440 that location. 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.900 So now we already have two things we have to patch out. 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.980 And then on top of that, you might be doing it in a loop. 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:43.340 You might be writing more than one file and the testing becomes very clumsy very quickly. 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:51.320 Whereas once you use the PyFaEFS library, you can just write as normal, validate against 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:53.540 that file system using the standard Python inputs. 00:10:53.540 --> 00:10:59.280 And what you end up with is, and once the test finishes, it all just goes out of scope and 00:10:59.280 --> 00:11:00.860 you don't even need to bother cleaning it up. 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:01.840 What's... 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:02.340 Yeah, that's cool. 00:11:02.340 --> 00:11:05.140 And you could specify the string that is the content to the file. 00:11:05.140 --> 00:11:07.440 So when the thing reads it, you can control the... 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:08.140 Absolutely. 00:11:08.140 --> 00:11:08.580 What it sees, right? 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:10.080 So it comes with a... 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:11.440 And Brian, you're going to love this. 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:14.300 It comes with a super handy pytest fixture. 00:11:14.300 --> 00:11:21.240 So if you are using pytest, which you should, you can just add the FS fixture to your unit test. 00:11:21.800 --> 00:11:27.900 And now everything in your unit test will be going to the fake file system rather than the 00:11:27.900 --> 00:11:29.640 real underlying fake file system. 00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:31.180 That's pretty cool. 00:11:31.180 --> 00:11:31.960 Yeah. 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.980 And the helper functions allows you, like you were hinting at, Mike, you can specify encodings, 00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:38.920 you can write in binary. 00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:40.380 It's super useful. 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:45.260 Something else that I use quite a lot is the ability to switch between Linux, Mac, and 00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:51.560 Windows file systems, which again, for Piper is such a boon to be able to test the cross-platform 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:52.000 compatibility. 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:52.740 Oh, interesting. 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:58.260 So if it asks for like the representation from a pathlib thing, it'll do SQL and backslash 00:11:58.260 --> 00:11:59.320 instead of forward slash. 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:00.700 Yeah, exactly right. 00:12:00.700 --> 00:12:07.160 So all of these things are, you know, I'm relatively conservative when it comes to pulling in new 00:12:07.160 --> 00:12:13.120 libraries because I'm, especially if the library feels heavy and I feel I can do it just using 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:14.320 standard lib functionality. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:19.320 And also with some libraries, I'm a little bit worried that they might stop being maintained 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:20.420 or something like that. 00:12:20.420 --> 00:12:25.800 But PyFakeFS has been around since 2006, developed by Google. 00:12:25.800 --> 00:12:28.400 It was open sourced in 2011. 00:12:29.180 --> 00:12:30.820 The maintainers are really on it. 00:12:30.820 --> 00:12:37.860 I submitted and had a PR merged earlier this year within an afternoon on a Saturday, which 00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:40.360 for open source is very quick. 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:42.160 So they're on top of it. 00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:43.660 Great project. 00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:44.480 Check it out on GitHub. 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:44.980 Check it. 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:46.480 Check out the documentation too. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.460 It's well documented and it's super useful. 00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:51.260 And I was looking at the Toxinny. 00:12:51.260 --> 00:12:55.580 It looks like it's tested to be compatible with PyPy also, which is kind of nice. 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:56.200 Yeah. 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:57.420 Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.800 Especially for what I'm doing in Piper, where wrangling configuration files is a lot of the 00:13:03.800 --> 00:13:05.340 functionality as a task runner. 00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:10.460 You're forever reading JSON, writing out YAML, converting between formats, converting between 00:13:10.460 --> 00:13:16.140 encodings, swapping out values inside configuration files, merging configuration files. 00:13:17.140 --> 00:13:25.780 And I'm now able to test all of this stuff without having to write integration tests for each and every permutation, which has been such a boon. 00:13:25.780 --> 00:13:28.480 This actually does way more than I thought it did. 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.200 I'm going to check this out. 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:30.700 This is neat. 00:13:30.700 --> 00:13:31.240 Yeah. 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:32.460 There's a lot of cool stuff there. 00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:32.960 Absolutely. 00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:39.580 Chris and Alvaro both think pretty neat out there. 00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:40.400 They're digging it. 00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:40.660 Yeah. 00:13:40.660 --> 00:13:42.380 And I see the comment there. 00:13:42.380 --> 00:13:48.660 It is like temp path with the difference that it's not actually writing to the desk itself, of course. 00:13:48.660 --> 00:13:58.480 And what's also a little bit difficult when you're using the temp directory and the temp file modules is depending on how you're testing, it doesn't always help you very much. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.260 Because the thing that might be generating the file might be the code under test. 00:14:02.260 --> 00:14:07.380 So you're effectively going to have to intercept that and create a temp file to attach to it. 00:14:07.380 --> 00:14:09.240 And then the temp file will clean itself up. 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:17.820 But that starts interrupting the flow of the functional code so much that I start questioning whether it's even a useful unit test anymore. 00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:19.560 Yeah, absolutely. 00:14:19.560 --> 00:14:20.900 Well, very, very cool. 00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:24.680 So, Brian, before we move on, let me tell you about our sponsor, all right? 00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:25.320 All right. 00:14:25.640 --> 00:14:30.640 This episode of Python Bytes is brought to you by Microsoft for Startups Founders Hub. 00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:32.660 Starting a business is hard. 00:14:32.660 --> 00:14:37.580 By some estimates, over 90% of startups will go out of business in just their first year. 00:14:37.580 --> 00:14:46.960 With that in mind, Microsoft for Startups set out to understand what startups need to be successful and to create a digital platform to help them overcome those challenges. 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to Microsoft for supporting the show. 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:15.000 Awesome. 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:15.780 Thank you, Microsoft. 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:24.280 Now, let me tell you about something that sounds incredibly simple, but as you kind of unwind it, you're like, wait, it does that too? 00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:25.320 Oh, it does that too? 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.260 Oh, that's kind of cool. 00:16:26.260 --> 00:16:30.420 Pretty similar to the fake file system that Thomas was just telling us about. 00:16:30.420 --> 00:16:32.260 This thing called sternum. 00:16:32.260 --> 00:16:35.500 Sternum is a fantastic name. 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:38.160 It's short for string enum, right? 00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:39.100 Enums. 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:40.220 When were enums added? 00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:41.100 Was that three, four? 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:42.440 Something like that. 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:43.560 A little while ago. 00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:46.480 So enums have been in Python for a while. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.260 Pretty much prehistory now that those are no longer supported. 00:16:51.660 --> 00:16:57.320 And with enums, you can write cool code that says this class, its fields are enumerations. 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:01.120 And then you can say, you know, enum type dot enum value. 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:03.640 And you can use that instead of magic words. 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:08.580 So, for example, you might have HTTP method or something like that. 00:17:08.580 --> 00:17:10.120 Or let's say HTTP status. 00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:12.920 Start with that one because that's like a built-in type thing you could do easily. 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:20.100 You could have a 200, a 201, a 400, a 500, a 404, those kinds of things. 00:17:20.100 --> 00:17:24.920 So, you could have like HTTP statuses dot and then those types with those numbers, right? 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.640 But there's a couple of challenges to working with those. 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:32.820 Their natural representation is a number, not a string. 00:17:32.820 --> 00:17:37.080 And I know you can derive from enum and then also derive from string. 00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:39.820 But like I said, more stuff happening than just that. 00:17:39.820 --> 00:17:48.020 So, this sternum allows you to create enums like that and use the enum auto, enum.auto field. 00:17:48.020 --> 00:17:52.100 So, I can say, here's an HTTP method with like verbs is really probably what it should be. 00:17:52.100 --> 00:17:55.440 So, you can have a get, you can have a head and a post and a put. 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:56.880 And you just say auto, auto, auto, auto. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:02.420 But the actual representation is that the get is a string get. 00:18:02.420 --> 00:18:09.300 And the like put one or post is, you know, put or post. 00:18:09.820 --> 00:18:09.920 Yeah. 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:15.220 And Alvaro is out there pointing out, thank you, that sternum was temporarily part of 3.10, but that it was dropped. 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:16.380 So, there was. 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:19.080 I saw a note that it might be included in 3.11 again. 00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:19.780 Okay. 00:18:19.780 --> 00:18:20.680 That'd be fantastic. 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:21.280 It would be. 00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:21.960 Yeah. 00:18:22.060 --> 00:18:23.480 So, there's some really neat stuff in here. 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:33.480 For example, one of the things that's nice is because this thing basically has the value string, where you're using it, you can actually use it where a string would be accepted. 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:45.540 So, here if you're doing a request to a URL and you've got to say method equals, here you can say method equals HTTP method dot head or whatever from the enum and it directly passes just the string head to the method. 00:18:45.540 --> 00:18:51.460 So, it's a really nice way to like gather up string values that are like part of a group, right? 00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:53.700 Like HTTP verbs or something like that. 00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:54.260 Wow. 00:18:54.260 --> 00:18:55.660 So, that's pretty neat. 00:18:55.660 --> 00:18:56.040 Okay. 00:18:56.040 --> 00:18:59.880 The side question is I don't really use auto much. 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.140 Is auto used anywhere else or is auto just an enum? 00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:04.840 It comes out of the enum module. 00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:05.100 Okay. 00:19:05.100 --> 00:19:06.420 So, it's part of this. 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.560 So, it's part of the enum thing. 00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:08.880 All right. 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:14.100 And one of the things I really like about this that is super tricky with enums is databases. 00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:20.400 So, for example, imagine we had like get head and post. 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.520 So, we just had auto, but it was an integer based one. 00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:23.560 So, it was like one, two, three. 00:19:23.560 --> 00:19:26.320 And we store it in the database, right? 00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.240 As a one or two or three and then you parse it back. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:28.500 Fine. 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:34.060 But then somebody adds another auto thing in there and they don't put it at the end. 00:19:34.060 --> 00:19:35.740 They're like, oh, this one starts with a D. 00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:36.860 So, it goes after delete. 00:19:36.860 --> 00:19:37.520 Yeah. 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:42.740 Well, all the stuff after that one is now off by one in the database, right? 00:19:42.820 --> 00:19:46.620 Like, so this, if it goes into the database, it goes in as a string and it'll parse back 00:19:46.620 --> 00:19:47.260 as the string. 00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:53.220 It also has cool stuff like lowercase sternum and uppercase string enum. 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.180 So, you can derive from that instead. 00:19:55.180 --> 00:20:00.820 And then no matter how you define your field, you get a lowercase string version or an uppercase 00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:01.620 string version. 00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:02.280 Okay. 00:20:02.620 --> 00:20:04.740 And there's other cases as well. 00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:10.280 There's pascal case, snake case, kebab case, macro case, and camel case. 00:20:10.280 --> 00:20:10.480 Woo! 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.060 Go crazy on them, people. 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:17.340 And you can have the same code, but then like the string representation varies. 00:20:17.340 --> 00:20:19.440 So, that's pretty awesome. 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.560 I think I'm going to go with kebab case just because that's fun to say. 00:20:22.560 --> 00:20:23.620 It's so fun. 00:20:23.620 --> 00:20:23.940 I know. 00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:29.240 And then, yeah, you can also directly assign the value. 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:34.140 So, you know, enum value equals some string and then it like, right, you don't have to 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:34.860 worry about a casing. 00:20:34.860 --> 00:20:36.240 It's exactly the string that you put. 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:37.240 Right? 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.160 So, there it is. 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.580 It's like regular enum, but strings. 00:20:41.580 --> 00:20:47.060 And as people pointed out that it's not that different from what people have been considering 00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:47.840 for CPython. 00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:52.180 I'm pretty sure I'd heard about it as well in being in there, but the fact that it's not 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:53.620 there, maybe it'll be there, maybe not. 00:20:53.620 --> 00:20:54.040 We'll see. 00:20:54.040 --> 00:20:54.660 It's interesting. 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.060 But this has a lot of cool features. 00:20:56.380 --> 00:21:00.840 And if you're not using 3.11 or want to depend upon it, you know, this is a small little 00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:01.360 project. 00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:02.000 Yeah. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:02.840 It's nice. 00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:03.520 Cool. 00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:03.680 Yeah. 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:04.880 Thomas, what do you think? 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.480 This is great. 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:15.020 I especially like how it's smart enough to autocast so that when you use the enum, it will end 00:21:15.020 --> 00:21:18.800 up translating to a string when you're actually hitting the database or your underlying API. 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:19.820 Yeah. 00:21:19.820 --> 00:21:22.580 It makes it actually usable in those situations just directly. 00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:23.140 Yeah. 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:24.300 Which I think is great. 00:21:24.300 --> 00:21:28.640 And funnily enough, the example they chose is so great by way of great documentation because 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:33.840 HTTP verbs are just almost the example of magic strings, right? 00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:35.380 Yeah, exactly. 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:36.100 Exactly. 00:21:36.100 --> 00:21:36.720 Yeah. 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:37.460 Quite cool. 00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:38.580 All right. 00:21:38.580 --> 00:21:39.680 Ryan, over to you. 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.780 I'd like to review your code a little bit. 00:21:41.780 --> 00:21:42.240 No. 00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:44.540 I don't know. 00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:45.900 I was trying to do a transition thing. 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:50.500 But so Tim Hopper wrote this article, which I absolutely love. 00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:54.560 And it's called the Code Review Guidelines for Data Science Teams. 00:21:54.560 --> 00:21:57.880 And I just recommend everybody go read it. 00:21:57.880 --> 00:21:59.060 It's short. 00:21:59.060 --> 00:21:59.540 It's good. 00:21:59.540 --> 00:22:07.560 But one of the things I really like that he highlighted is before he got into the code review 00:22:07.560 --> 00:22:13.420 or the code review guidelines, he started with, why are we doing a code review? 00:22:13.860 --> 00:22:15.160 What is a code review for? 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:20.680 And this is something I think that is important just to talk with whoever, whatever team is 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:27.660 going on and talking, maybe even sticking it in a participation guideline in a project, 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:34.340 open source project even, is that it's not just so that we can look at the code or check 00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:35.080 it to merge it. 00:22:35.080 --> 00:22:39.480 So his reasons for a code review are first code correctness. 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.340 And that's what we think about is making sure the code's correct. 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.560 But also code familiarity. 00:22:45.560 --> 00:22:47.220 Familiarity. 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:52.380 So you might be the expert on a project and everybody else is only kind of new on it. 00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:58.580 You still should have code reviews for your code changes so that everybody else can watch also 00:22:58.580 --> 00:23:02.100 and get familiar with the changes going on. 00:23:02.100 --> 00:23:03.320 So that's nice. 00:23:03.320 --> 00:23:04.920 Design feedback, of course. 00:23:05.260 --> 00:23:10.700 mutual learning and regression protection are all the reasons why he did a code review. 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:17.060 And the other thing I also love is what to leave out of a code review. 00:23:17.060 --> 00:23:22.160 So code reviews are not about trying to impose your guidelines on somebody else. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:29.220 And they're also not a reason to push off responsibility. 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:32.060 So as long as your code's getting reviewed, it doesn't have to be correct, right? 00:23:32.060 --> 00:23:34.560 Because somebody will catch any problems. 00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:36.540 It's a bad thing to do in a code review. 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:39.140 So make sure your code's correct. 00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:45.740 It's all cleaned up as soon as you, what you think is it's ready and then submit it, but 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:46.940 then also be nice. 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:49.560 So being nice is important. 00:23:49.560 --> 00:23:50.280 Yeah. 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:50.880 Very cool. 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.780 So then it goes, he goes through, I'm not going to go through all these here, but he goes through 00:23:54.780 --> 00:24:02.340 different things about what to think about before you do a, create a pull request and then what 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:05.000 to do if you're reviewing a pull request. 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:10.920 And a lot of these are just, they're just around being a kind human to the person on the other 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:11.140 end. 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:13.840 So that's really kind of what it's about. 00:24:13.840 --> 00:24:19.880 So I saw a mention in the summer that I really liked, which is, I mean, by nature, a code review 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:21.060 is sort of nitpicky, right? 00:24:21.060 --> 00:24:24.480 You're paying attention to flaws, but it's nice to compliment. 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:29.640 Also, like if there's something nifty or cool or cute, acknowledge compliment, call attention 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:29.980 to it. 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:32.260 Oh, that's a, that's a good point. 00:24:32.260 --> 00:24:33.220 And I really liked that. 00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:39.540 I also think, so one of the things that you don't want to do in a code review is like one 00:24:39.540 --> 00:24:42.560 of the guidelines is, is we're not looking for perfection. 00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:49.820 We're just, it's gotta, you know, that isn't one of the things we're looking for, but so what 00:24:49.820 --> 00:24:52.580 happens if you notice something and you're like, it's a little weird. 00:24:52.580 --> 00:24:53.300 It does it. 00:24:53.300 --> 00:24:56.240 I'd like to say something about it, but I don't know how to say that. 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:01.880 His comment is to, to have, if you've got a minor thing that you want to comment on, go 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:03.120 ahead and sort of tag it. 00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:07.980 He recommends tagging it with knit in it or a nitpick or something. 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:14.860 Just to be clear that I'm, I don't know if I like the word knit, but to be clear, Hey, 00:25:14.860 --> 00:25:15.800 I noticed this. 00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:17.500 Maybe we want to change this in the future. 00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:22.520 Somehow indicate to the person that they don't need to fix this before the PR gets merged. 00:25:22.520 --> 00:25:23.880 You're just noticed it. 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:29.820 So, and it might be something that the person that submitting the PR didn't realize in the 00:25:29.820 --> 00:25:31.760 first place and went, Oh yeah, I don't like that either. 00:25:31.760 --> 00:25:32.520 I'm going to fix it. 00:25:32.520 --> 00:25:34.760 Or yes, I do know about that. 00:25:34.760 --> 00:25:37.140 And I do plan on fixing it later or what, you know, whatever. 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:40.280 So just an interesting guideline. 00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:46.180 And I think it can just, I'm kind of a, I've been on a kick lately of reading things about 00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:52.880 community and, and creating cohesive teams and the review process is definitely some somewhere 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.380 to you need to have attention to for most teams. 00:25:56.380 --> 00:25:58.300 So anyway, that's it. 00:25:58.300 --> 00:25:58.940 Yeah. 00:25:58.940 --> 00:25:59.320 I like it. 00:25:59.320 --> 00:26:00.160 This is really handy. 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:07.060 I love the idea of having as much as possible, have the automation, make the complaints. 00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:11.100 And like Thomas said, have the people give the compliments and the sort of interesting 00:26:11.100 --> 00:26:11.580 discussion. 00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:11.860 Right. 00:26:11.860 --> 00:26:14.860 But like if black can just take care of the formatting, like you shouldn't have to debate 00:26:14.860 --> 00:26:15.720 a formatting. 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:16.220 Yeah. 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:19.420 And if a linter can tell you, you know what, there's something wrong with this. 00:26:19.420 --> 00:26:21.400 Just like, let the linter be the bad guy. 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:21.900 Yeah. 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:25.960 It was one of the guidelines that he brought up, which is interesting is especially with CI 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:32.140 and we're pushing a lot of things on black or, or linters that to wait. 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:33.560 So wait a little bit. 00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:37.100 So don't, don't like review a code review right away. 00:26:37.320 --> 00:26:43.780 Especially not if the CI hasn't finished, let the CI finish and let the person creating 00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:46.300 it fix anything before you jump in. 00:26:46.300 --> 00:26:50.620 I also, that peeve of mine, don't comment on it right away. 00:26:50.620 --> 00:26:57.380 I might, one of the things I do frequently is I'll create a, a PR, especially for in a 00:26:57.380 --> 00:27:01.700 work setting, I'll create a PR and then I, there's some complicated things. 00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:07.000 So I plan on going through and writing some comments around some of the complicated bits. 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.900 Like why did I do certain things? 00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:17.240 And, so if you see a PR right away, especially from me, wait 10 minutes or so before commenting 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:17.620 on it. 00:27:17.620 --> 00:27:21.000 Cause I might, I might've answered your question before you get a chance to ask it. 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.800 An exclamation might be coming. 00:27:22.800 --> 00:27:23.120 Yeah. 00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:23.640 Indeed. 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:24.380 Anyway. 00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:25.860 Awesome. 00:27:25.860 --> 00:27:26.840 All right, Thomas. 00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:27.940 How are you? 00:27:28.060 --> 00:27:32.920 We're about to head into controversy because there's been, there's been some discord. 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:34.640 Are you going to bash on something? 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:35.060 Come on. 00:27:35.060 --> 00:27:39.380 I'm going to bash it over the head with a, like a caveman. 00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:40.280 Bash it with Python. 00:27:40.280 --> 00:27:47.000 So partly inspired on the continuation of last week's discussion, you had about running sub 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:48.200 processes from Python. 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:56.220 And, Itamar Turner-Trowing wrote an article this week called, please, please emphasis mine. 00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:58.040 Stop writing shell scripts. 00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:05.260 Now this, as you might imagine, raised a bit of questions on the usual places like Reddit 00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:12.480 and Twitter, but if nothing else, controversy aside, the article is a very good and succinct 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:19.340 summary of the most common gotchas and problems with bash, which we can almost all summarize 00:28:19.340 --> 00:28:21.940 as that error handling is strange. 00:28:21.940 --> 00:28:27.920 If you're used to other programming languages, like bash is a kingdom unto its own when it 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.460 comes to programming languages. 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:35.760 So he also gives a great recommendation for if you really, really have to write in bash, 00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:37.640 uh, what you might want to do. 00:28:37.800 --> 00:28:45.020 And that would be to use the unofficial bash strict mode, which basically involves setting 00:28:45.020 --> 00:28:47.520 that bit of boilerplate on top of your bash. 00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:52.860 I'm not going to cover all the details, but basically the E and the U option will fail 00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:53.860 immediately on error. 00:28:53.860 --> 00:28:55.580 It will fail on unset variables. 00:28:55.580 --> 00:29:00.080 And if you add the pipe file option, errors won't pass between pipes. 00:29:00.080 --> 00:29:04.580 a pipe will actually fail immediately if there's an error process. 00:29:04.580 --> 00:29:05.580 Awesome. 00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:06.120 Like it should. 00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:08.120 Like it should indeed. 00:29:08.120 --> 00:29:14.300 But the point is there's batches on all technology and there's a lot of problems here. 00:29:14.300 --> 00:29:25.460 And let me add, although this article mostly aims at bash, I am very happy, including born and SSH and fish and take your pick underneath the same dictum. 00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:37.200 Now he goes on to talk about the typical reasons we hear of why we should be using bash of which the top one is, well, it's the most common. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.400 And you're guaranteed to have an SSH runtime, at least on any given machine that you're going to be using. 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:55.300 But the point is not really because when we're doing code automation, almost by definition, the programming language or coding in its runtime is on the server. 00:29:55.300 --> 00:30:05.220 So this argument that somehow it's good to go to the lowest common denominator, AKA SH or bash, when you already have Python on the machine is sort of, well, why? 00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:12.540 And especially when we're talking about Python, which is so great at automation, it just baffles the mind. 00:30:12.540 --> 00:30:13.600 That's a good point there. 00:30:13.600 --> 00:30:16.540 You don't have to set up a compiler or any of that kind of business. 00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:17.940 I say the same thing about Golang. 00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:21.920 I mean, by definition, when you're compiling Go, the Go compiler is right there. 00:30:22.040 --> 00:30:26.360 You might as well be writing a Go script or whichever your programming language is. 00:30:26.360 --> 00:30:34.700 I mean, maybe if you're starting to talk about like C or C++, there's maybe a different argument that we can have there. 00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:47.460 The second point he brings up is what I'm going to paraphrase as get good, which is this bash guru response, which we saw a bit off in the last week, that you're just bad at bash. 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:54.260 Like if you were better at bash, you wouldn't be complaining about these things, which is not a great reason. 00:30:54.260 --> 00:30:59.100 It's just because it's not better because it's hard, right? 00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:01.320 We have better tools available. 00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:04.640 We have tools that behave more responsibly. 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:20.060 And something that I think is very important in line with what you've been talking about, Brian, about building teams is very often your automation activities start becoming this specialized zone that only two or three people on the team can even look at because they're the bash gurus. 00:31:20.060 --> 00:31:22.060 And everyone else is too afraid to touch it. 00:31:22.060 --> 00:31:29.180 Whereas if you keep your automation activities within the language you're coding in, suddenly everyone on the team can start carrying their weight, right? 00:31:30.280 --> 00:31:33.400 Yeah, I kind of relate to this a lot. 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:40.400 I've been on projects where we've had a lot of our automation in bash and others that have been other languages. 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:50.860 Right now, it was one of those things, especially if you're not looking on a Windows environment, bash isn't there all automatically. 00:31:50.860 --> 00:31:55.840 And a lot of the team members might not be familiar with it. 00:31:55.840 --> 00:32:04.420 So the thing that I don't know if he addresses this, the thing that I was thinking about was we all know Python if we're programming Python. 00:32:04.420 --> 00:32:13.700 But we might not all know the automation parts of it, the way to do like file manipulation or. 00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:14.100 Right. 00:32:14.100 --> 00:32:17.380 I say util and that kind of stuff. 00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:24.540 Stuff that we might be familiar with with bash because we, if we're using it all the time on the command line, I already know how to do it. 00:32:24.540 --> 00:32:30.920 But I might not know how to do that sort of stuff in Python because I'm not using Python like that. 00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:44.940 But anyway, well, my response to that would be that whatever the thing is that you don't know how to do in Python, your chances of running into trouble with bash are, to my mind, a lot higher than they are with Python. 00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:58.420 Or at least when things misbehave in Python, your control of flow is better so that you probably will have a, especially as the scripts start getting bigger, you will have better control over where the issues might be. 00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:03.200 Or you would be better able to isolate those areas that you're not exactly sure of. 00:33:03.800 --> 00:33:10.800 I saw someone in chat last week raise the specter of make files that call shell scripts that call make files. 00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:13.780 And I mean, this is not uncommon. 00:33:13.780 --> 00:33:15.460 I'm sure we've all seen these things. 00:33:15.460 --> 00:33:21.720 And I'm actually very interested in the psychology around this because we're all coders, right? 00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:24.700 I assume we're here because we enjoy automating things. 00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:26.200 We enjoy solving problems. 00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:33.240 We probably, you know, have a certain problem solving sort of mindset that got us into this to begin with. 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:40.920 Yet, it seems like we spend so much time automating our customers' business processes that we forget to automate our own coding processes. 00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.960 Or when we do, we deallocate the priority. 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:45.260 We de-budget it. 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.660 We end up focusing on all sorts of other things other than this essential housekeeping. 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:50.700 Yeah. 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:55.200 Or treat it like a throwaway code instead of code that needs to be carefully factored. 00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:56.220 Exactly right. 00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:58.280 And I would argue it's a bit like housekeeping. 00:33:58.280 --> 00:33:59.980 You know, no one likes doing it. 00:33:59.980 --> 00:34:02.600 But if you don't want to live in a big star, you've got to do it. 00:34:02.600 --> 00:34:03.360 You know, instead. 00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:04.140 Yeah. 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:10.980 Well, also, to be honest, I was there once of like, I don't know how to do this automation stuff in Python. 00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:13.580 But it bugged me that I didn't know how. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.720 So I'm like, okay, well, what do I need to learn? 00:34:16.720 --> 00:34:23.800 Like the few things like searching for stuff like I normally would have used Perl for Regex or something like that or said. 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:25.940 All that stuff you can do with Python. 00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:27.780 And actually, there's tons of articles on it. 00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:32.780 It's really not that hard to go, okay, the pieces I'm missing, how do I do that? 00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:33.940 And just go learn it. 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:38.200 And then it's not that hard to switch a lot of automation to Python. 00:34:38.200 --> 00:34:39.640 Yeah, definitely not. 00:34:39.640 --> 00:34:43.000 And I mean, so much other automation happens in Python anyway. 00:34:43.600 --> 00:34:48.980 I mean, in fact, kind of compiled programming languages will often use Python as an automation language. 00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:51.580 It's so handy for the automation process. 00:34:52.420 --> 00:35:04.020 There is another psychological thing, which I find, or I think psychological thing, that I find quite curious here, which is this dealing with complex shell scripts almost becomes this like technocratic rite of passage. 00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:15.440 Where when you couple that with imposter syndrome, you know, it's very easy to be intimidated by the bash bros when they do these really clever one-liner bashisms that you can't make head or tail off. 00:35:15.700 --> 00:35:17.700 And it's like, yeah, look how clever this is. 00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:19.540 But it's very hard to maintain. 00:35:19.540 --> 00:35:23.880 You don't, you know, and it's almost hard to call that to account unless you're very sure of yourself. 00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:28.260 Because you almost have to justify yourself as to why you dislike it. 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:29.880 Like you first have to prove your bona fides. 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:42.720 I think it's sort of the tech equivalent of, you know, back in my day, like we didn't have X, you know, like whatever X is, shoes or toilet paper or like whatever. 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:48.280 Just because something used to be difficult doesn't mean it needs to be difficult forevermore, right? 00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:48.680 Yeah. 00:35:48.680 --> 00:35:51.720 Like the extra difficulty doesn't make it better. 00:35:51.720 --> 00:36:02.440 It's not a video game like Elden Ring, you know, like the easier this is, the more quickly and effectively you can do the housekeeping, the more you can get up with the features that actually pay the bills. 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:07.340 Which is to say the shiny functional stuff that you can demo and put in front of customers. 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:08.740 Yeah, absolutely. 00:36:08.740 --> 00:36:12.200 I have some real-time feedback and also a comment for you. 00:36:12.540 --> 00:36:17.740 Alvaro says there's a VS Code plugin called Shellshock, if he's remembering it correctly. 00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:20.300 Tells me when I'm doing something wrong or it might blow up. 00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:21.740 There's also a plugin for PyCharm. 00:36:21.740 --> 00:36:24.480 So if you're going to do it, you know, have those things for sure. 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:35.780 Yeah, funnily enough, we've got immediate feedback to that, which is the author of the original article mentions Shellshock, which is effectively, like the commentator mentioned, a linter for Bash. 00:36:35.780 --> 00:36:40.500 But the article also mentions that it doesn't actually catch all things either. 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:49.080 So like all linterers, it can very easily lull you into a false sense of security, while it's not really necessarily addressing the underlying problems. 00:36:49.080 --> 00:36:57.860 And I almost feel like I don't even need to say this because anyone who's ever tried to debug a long Bash script should know this. 00:36:57.860 --> 00:36:59.080 They're tricky. 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:03.420 They fail in mysterious places, and it's very hard to figure out why and how. 00:37:04.220 --> 00:37:12.920 Yeah, but I do like this article pointing out how, if you have to, to set up those flags to make it, you know, fail quicker. 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:13.120 Yeah. 00:37:13.120 --> 00:37:14.180 Because that helps a lot. 00:37:14.180 --> 00:37:15.520 So that's nice. 00:37:15.520 --> 00:37:16.060 Yeah. 00:37:16.060 --> 00:37:16.820 Yeah, for sure. 00:37:17.380 --> 00:37:21.100 And also, just to give the author massive amounts of credit, this isn't clickbait. 00:37:21.100 --> 00:37:24.820 He didn't position this as never, ever use Bash. 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:35.680 In fact, he explicitly says that, okay, if you're doing something super simplistic, like the typical sort of things that goes into a get hook, a pre-commit hook, where you're just running a command or two, then yeah, sure. 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.180 Of course, shell script's fine. 00:37:37.180 --> 00:37:46.360 But I would say as soon as you're running loops, as soon as you're doing conditional branching, as soon as you're worried about retries, as soon as you're doing... 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:47.360 Oh, yeah, definitely. 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:48.380 Switch to Python. 00:37:48.380 --> 00:37:48.960 Absolutely. 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:50.060 Yeah. 00:37:50.060 --> 00:37:50.620 Yeah. 00:37:50.620 --> 00:37:53.260 And then another quick question, just a quick follow-up. 00:37:53.260 --> 00:37:55.740 Have you considered Conch? 00:37:55.740 --> 00:37:57.320 I've not even heard of Conch. 00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:58.440 I never mind considering it. 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:02.900 So it's, I haven't done much, but I've sort of looked at it. 00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:13.740 It is a shell, like a competitor to Bash or ZShell or something like that, where it's a proper Python environment directly in the shell. 00:38:13.740 --> 00:38:15.880 That's almost PowerShell-esque. 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:22.060 Yeah, it's a little bit like PowerShell, where PowerShell is like kind of .NET, C-sharp-like, kind of, but not really. 00:38:22.060 --> 00:38:24.500 I suspect it's similar here, but... 00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:30.540 And I know it's supposed to be pronounced Conch, but my brain says Zaunch, because it's funner to say. 00:38:30.540 --> 00:38:30.860 Zaunch. 00:38:30.860 --> 00:38:32.480 I know, but it has the shell. 00:38:32.640 --> 00:38:34.800 It has the shell, so you know that's how you got to say it. 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.540 Yeah, they even have the Asgard going on for the logo. 00:38:37.540 --> 00:38:38.400 That's interesting. 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:39.960 They do indeed. 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:40.540 They do indeed. 00:38:40.540 --> 00:38:41.940 All right. 00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:42.760 Well, cool, Thomas. 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:43.660 That was a good conversation. 00:38:43.660 --> 00:38:43.880 That was good. 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:46.180 So do we have any extras? 00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:48.080 Michael, do you have any extras? 00:38:48.080 --> 00:38:50.380 You know I got extras, right? 00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:55.240 I also, first, real quick follow-up, a real-time follow-up from Henry Scheiner in the audience, 00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:59.560 that pep663 was the PEP around string enum. 00:38:59.560 --> 00:39:00.040 Oh, okay. 00:39:00.040 --> 00:39:05.300 And he's not sure if removing the support for that PEP means removing string enum from the standard lib or not, though. 00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:10.780 Doesn't do all the other stuff like the casing and the various other things that that cool package I talked about does. 00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:16.480 So maybe that package is, no matter what, relevant still or inspiration for the next one or whatever, right? 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:19.560 In terms of extras, I do have some extras. 00:39:19.560 --> 00:39:22.360 Let me see what order I wanted to cover them in. 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.600 I had two, but then one got rescheduled. 00:39:25.140 --> 00:39:33.260 This is supposed to be the transformation from bugs.python.org over to GitHub, but that got pushed back a week, so I'm not going to talk about that. 00:39:33.260 --> 00:39:34.720 You just did. 00:39:34.720 --> 00:39:38.020 Well, I was going to say it's happening. 00:39:38.020 --> 00:39:39.620 It should have happened by the time you hear this. 00:39:39.620 --> 00:39:40.100 Go check it out. 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:41.420 No, it's not true anymore. 00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:42.780 No, okay. 00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:49.260 Just if you're curious, supposedly it's moved to April 1st, but it's April Fool's Day, so I'm not sure if it's really going to happen or not. 00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:54.340 Maybe it's a long con where the joke is being set up for in advance. 00:39:54.340 --> 00:39:55.680 Yeah, exactly. 00:39:55.680 --> 00:39:57.020 Oh, we're actually never doing this. 00:39:57.020 --> 00:39:57.260 No. 00:39:57.260 --> 00:39:58.840 I'm looking forward to that happening. 00:39:58.840 --> 00:39:59.240 That's great. 00:39:59.240 --> 00:39:59.820 All right. 00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:06.940 I just have like a general theme of sort of stuff that's like thrown all together, kind of a changing of the guard, if you will. 00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:07.360 Okay. 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:08.560 Let's see here. 00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:12.280 So I have been switching so much of my software stuff around. 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:13.560 I've started using Vivaldi. 00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:18.900 Now I've been using Firefox for a long time, but I started using Vivaldi, which I think is a really neat take on a browser. 00:40:19.620 --> 00:40:22.460 So I switched over to Vivaldi and started using that. 00:40:22.460 --> 00:40:24.820 You know, there's a bunch of different things. 00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:28.720 Like Mozilla laid off 250 people recently. 00:40:28.720 --> 00:40:31.660 They're axing the developer tools team too, which is just tragic. 00:40:31.660 --> 00:40:31.920 Exactly. 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:33.580 Cut the developer tools team. 00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:38.820 They cut the threat team, the team that looks for like a tactic. 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:41.580 It's like, I don't know. 00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:42.900 It's starting to make me a little nervous. 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:44.100 So I'm trying out Vivaldi. 00:40:44.100 --> 00:40:47.740 I've been doing that for like a month or so, and I'm enjoying that. 00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:54.200 Mike, you said it's a different take on a browser or like, so it sounds like there's something conceptually different about it. 00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:56.160 It's just super customizable. 00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:57.380 I think that's the thing. 00:40:57.380 --> 00:40:59.660 It's like, there's just all sorts of stuff. 00:40:59.660 --> 00:41:01.980 It comes with a built-in ad blockers and tracker blockers. 00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:04.560 I know some of them do tracker blockers, but built-in ad blockers. 00:41:04.560 --> 00:41:04.880 Nice. 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:06.740 I mean, Brave is the other one that kind of does that. 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:11.580 But Brave is like, well, let's just trade those ads for our cryptocurrency ads that we'll put in there for you. 00:41:11.580 --> 00:41:12.800 And you get a little bit of cryptocurrency. 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.560 This is like, no, we'll just block the ads. 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.740 So anyway, I switched over to that, partly motivated by just concern around this, but also just wanted to try some stuff out. 00:41:22.740 --> 00:41:27.380 From Google Docs over to Zoho for other stuff and for like business email. 00:41:27.380 --> 00:41:29.000 There's so interesting stuff going on there. 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.580 And then like also DuckDuckGo. 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:33.680 I've been using that for a while and I tried that a while ago. 00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:35.840 It just, I didn't feel like you switched. 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:41.860 To me now, there's just like almost no difference in the quality compared to Google these days. 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:44.940 Where it used to be, I'd try and like, I might have to go to Google for that. 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:46.760 Like, you know, several times a day. 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:47.440 No, I don't really. 00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:51.580 If I get stuck here, usually I try to go to Google and get it and I get still stuck. 00:41:51.580 --> 00:41:53.540 So just got to deal with it. 00:41:53.540 --> 00:41:55.620 So that's it for all my items. 00:41:55.620 --> 00:41:56.900 I'm just down to telling a joke. 00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:00.080 Thomas, you got anything extra you want to share throughout the area of the world? 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:01.000 Not particularly. 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.500 I'm looking forward to your joke. 00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:03.700 Give a quick shout out to Piper real quick. 00:42:03.700 --> 00:42:04.060 Oh yeah. 00:42:04.060 --> 00:42:06.140 Check out last week's episode. 00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:07.760 I know we covered it last week, but yeah. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.060 Michael actually did as good an introduction to Piper as I could give. 00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:13.440 So congratulations and well done. 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.260 Thank you. 00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:16.560 If you do want to check it out, support open source software. 00:42:16.560 --> 00:42:20.340 Do the usual share, like, subscribe, all the rest of it. 00:42:20.340 --> 00:42:21.540 You can check it out on GitHub. 00:42:21.540 --> 00:42:25.360 It is the Piper Task Corner, P-Y-P-Y-R. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.460 And incidentally, if you don't want to run Bash scripts, 00:42:29.720 --> 00:42:34.960 then a Task Corner might be a good way of not doing so. 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:36.240 Yeah. 00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:39.600 I was thinking about your project while you were talking about this. 00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:41.440 I don't want to shill too horribly. 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.520 So I try to keep that to the end. 00:42:44.520 --> 00:42:45.900 That's our job. 00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:46.480 We only shill. 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.280 We basically just shill cool stuff all week. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.000 That's our podcast. 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.160 Ryan, how about you? 00:42:51.160 --> 00:42:52.920 Got anything extra you want to shout out there? 00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:55.960 I've got some stuff, but there's nothing I can share right now. 00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:56.900 So, yeah. 00:42:56.900 --> 00:42:57.280 All right. 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.620 Well, we'll be waiting. 00:42:58.620 --> 00:43:00.360 How about we share a joke then and wrap it up? 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:00.780 Sounds good. 00:43:00.780 --> 00:43:06.700 So I feel like this is a missed opportunity because we had Ian on last week and he was all about 00:43:06.700 --> 00:43:10.400 cybersecurity and using notebooks to track threats and stuff. 00:43:10.940 --> 00:43:13.040 Well, has he considered this? 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:19.160 That was in a James Bond movie, right? 00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:21.240 It's been several. 00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:22.540 It could have been. 00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:27.360 So here is like a big server rack with just, you know, like a hundred Ethernet cables. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:32.580 And in a big printed sign on it says, in case of cyber attack, break glass, pull cables. 00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:35.920 I'll also say what surprises me. 00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:42.900 The Internet is going soft in its old age because back in my day, the first comments would have 00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:44.700 been complaining that the cables aren't tidy enough. 00:43:44.700 --> 00:43:47.160 Wow. 00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:48.540 You got to get a good grip on it. 00:43:48.540 --> 00:43:48.760 Yeah, exactly. 00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:52.360 There's one zippy move with your arm and you give it a yank. 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:53.360 You need good cable management. 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:54.240 This is exactly why. 00:43:54.240 --> 00:43:55.420 There's a lot of cables. 00:43:55.420 --> 00:43:58.980 They should put like orange tags on the ones that are important to pull or something. 00:43:58.980 --> 00:43:59.740 Yeah. 00:43:59.740 --> 00:44:00.820 Exactly. 00:44:00.820 --> 00:44:02.840 This is the sort of criticism that I would have expected. 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:09.140 Actually, the entire thing has a power switch just to power off the whole thing. 00:44:09.140 --> 00:44:10.600 You don't want to lose data. 00:44:10.600 --> 00:44:11.480 I mean, come on. 00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:12.000 No, just kidding. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.840 Also, where's the axe? 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.360 How do you break the glass? 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:16.560 Exactly. 00:44:16.560 --> 00:44:19.480 Oh, or just open the door handle. 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:21.840 Very, not very thought through. 00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:23.340 It reminds me a little bit of that. 00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:25.860 In case fire, git commit, git push, run. 00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:31.840 I mean, you know, also we're talking about IT people who generally probably aren't, you 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.440 know, that much into the pushing regime. 00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:34.840 So, you know. 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:36.280 Or lifting axes. 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:38.680 You know, that might be a strain. 00:44:38.680 --> 00:44:40.400 Sorry. 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:41.820 I'm going to get hate mail for that. 00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:42.340 Oh, we are. 00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:44.280 Yes, indeed. 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.220 Well, I thought it was fun, Brian. 00:44:47.220 --> 00:44:52.180 So, well, thanks everybody for having a fun episode again. 00:44:52.180 --> 00:44:54.160 Thank you, Thomas, for showing up. 00:44:54.160 --> 00:44:54.960 Thanks, Michael. 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.520 And thank you, everybody in the chat for showing up. 00:44:57.520 --> 00:44:58.920 So, we'll see you all next week. 00:44:58.920 --> 00:44:59.680 Bye, everyone.