WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

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This is episode 293, recorded July 11th, 2022.

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And I am Brian Okken.

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Hey, I'm Michael Kennedy.

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And I'm Ashley Anderson.

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Well, welcome, Ashley.

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Before we jump in, tell us a little bit about who you are.

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Yeah, I'm a software developer.

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I work for a relatively small but sometimes growing startup out here.

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We make a portable MRI machine.

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So I'm one of these software developers that came from an academic background.

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I studied biomedical engineering and medical physics.

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And then this is kind of my first full-time software gig.

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But I think in research, like everyone's doing software these days.

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So a lot of people are kind of making that jump.

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And this was a perfect opportunity for it.

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A portable MRI.

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That's got to be fascinating.

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Cool.

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Very cool.

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How do you find the transition from this more researchy side over to this maybe more formal dev role?

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Yeah, it's like just such a better fit for me.

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I think.

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Like in my research labs and stuff, I was often like way more interested in helping build tools and stuff to help accelerate other people's work.

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Rather than, you know, diving into the research myself, I often found that to be very frustrating.

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And maybe I wasn't the best at it or something like that.

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So this has just been a much better fit for me.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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Well, let's jump into your first topic.

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What do you got for us?

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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The first thing I wanted to talk about was, I think this is kind of the big news since Friday.

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The PSF and the PyPI announced that they're giving away 4,000 of these two-factor hardware keys.

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That's maybe kind of gotten washed out in this, but it's kind of a cool effort.

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I saw this from Dustin Ingram's Twitter.

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And I know he's been involved in a lot of the, or been interested in kind of outlining a lot of the security concerns about supply chain vulnerabilities and stuff in the past.

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I thought this was a really interesting idea for helping with supply chain vulnerabilities, or at least kind of taking a step in that direction.

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And I think it's just the PyPI, you know, sort of first step in this direction.

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They announced some other stuff in the past about maybe having private packages or organizations on there and namespace packages and stuff.

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But this was a pretty cool thing to do.

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It looks like they're going to roll out two-factor as a requirement, probably eventually for everybody.

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The way they're starting it now is kind of for some of the most popular packages.

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And for people who have those popular packages, I'm not one of them.

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They're offering codes to get some of these hardware keys to help that.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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There's been a bit of a backlash to this, actually, which on two levels.

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Some people just expressing a little bit of frustration and others more so.

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See item two coming up.

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One thing I think is interesting about this, this whole side of things is like the original thing that you brought up, Ashley, is people, I think, are focusing on their hardware keys.

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And while that's a cool idea, I think the bigger story is just 2FA.

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Forget hardware keys.

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Like hardware keys are one way to do 2FA.

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Right.

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But if you look at the actual giveaway, I think it's limited to certain locations.

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Right.

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Like I can't remember what all the locations were.

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I feel like it's kind of North America, Europe and Australia or something in that general realm.

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And you could entirely have a popular, what is now known as a critical Python package and not live in those locations.

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Right.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, I suspect a lot of them, a lot of the maintainers of those packages are not in some of those locations.

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I think those are probably dictated by like export rules on certain cryptography.

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But I hadn't thought about that.

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I thought it was just a shipping thing, but you're probably right about that, actually.

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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So there's a little bit of a pushback and like, hey, I'm doing this for free.

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Why are you making me do this extra work setting up these keys?

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And that's kind of why I said I feel like it's kind of the headline has missed the point here because to say, oh, I've got to get this hardware key and set it up is not technically true.

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You just have to use 2FA of some form.

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Right.

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It could be with like the standard 2FA you have with your phone or maybe even SMS would work.

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Although SMS is a sketchy but better than nothing form of 2FA.

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Like if I'm going to go and get a bank account.

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Some people suggest.

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If I'm going to.

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Some people.

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Yeah, go ahead.

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Sorry.

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Some people say that SMS really is like a pretty insecure version of 2FA.

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So I think having.

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They do.

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Some type of keys.

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And they say like.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It would be better.

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But like at the same time, if you don't have any 2FA, there's still another step.

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They've got to hack your SMS somehow to get through the SMS stuff, which is better than just like they just guess your password.

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Or do they get it from a password breach?

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So it's even for all the criticisms of SMS as a 2FA, it's still not a negative.

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It's just not nearly as good as the other option.

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I'm just chuckling because I just got an email last week about from.

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Was it on the 8th of July?

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Saying, hey, you're a critical.

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You're a maintainer of a critical project.

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And they want me to set up 2FA.

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And I just haven't read it yet.

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So I like.

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This is news to me.

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And it's what it's a pie test plugin I've got that supposedly is a critical project.

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Go figure.

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Oh, that's awesome.

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The definition.

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People are wondering.

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I saw Will McGugan asking on Twitter, like, does anybody know what this means?

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Where did I got this to?

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The definition from what I understand is you are in the top 1% of downloads for a moving

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six month window.

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So in the last six months, your project is in the top 1% of most used, most downloaded.

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Wow.

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So congratulations.

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That's awesome.

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That's awesome, Brian.

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Cool.

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I guess I'll read the email more closely now.

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Yeah, perhaps.

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Get this set up.

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Ashley, do you know what happens if you just are like Brian?

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Like, I don't.

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Spam.

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Doesn't matter to me.

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Just ignore it.

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That's a good question.

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I guess eventually they'll probably not let you upload if you don't enable it.

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Like, next time you go to log in or upload a package, it'll just say, hey, you have to

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turn on 2FA.

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Because like you said, you don't have to have the key.

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You just have to have 2FA on.

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So I clicked on the manage and it says, I've got a little big banner up.

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I'll just pop to it right now.

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Oh, where's it on here?

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We'll go ahead and show this.

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I get, this project is included in the two-factor mandate for critical projects.

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In the future, you will be unable to perform this action without enabling two-factor.

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So I think you're right.

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I think it's just going to kick me out of being able to do anything with the project.

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if I don't enable this.

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Yeah.

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Interesting.

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Interesting.

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This is cool, Brian.

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One, I think Teddy's right out there.

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Like, congrats.

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Brian's on fire.

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High test check, by the way.

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People listening is the plugin.

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But it's cool to see it live, to see what's happening.

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So this apparently is what maintainers get.

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And I'm with you, Ashna.

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I think what's going to happen is you just, you won't be able to upload with Twine anymore.

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You won't be able to log in.

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You won't be able to make changes.

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It'll just force you down a 2FA path.

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Yeah, I read that you still can upload because, like, people want to do, I know there were some people initially concerned about, like, how do I do automatic uploads from my CI system or whatever?

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And you can do it if you get a token.

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But you have to, like, you know, generate one of those tokens with your 2FA-enabled account to do that.

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Right.

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That happens with all the 2FA accounts, right?

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You can no longer use your GitHub password for, like, on the CLI.

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Like, once you set up GitHub 2FA, then all of a sudden you've got to go create an app, give it a name, and get, like, an API token for it and stuff like that, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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I think that's okay.

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Yeah.

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So, Brian, let's ask you, like, how do you feel about that?

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Does this seem like a big burden to you?

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Are you okay with this?

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Or?

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You know, I was, I'm okay with it because I think it's securing the supply chain.

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I mean, I've already enabled the two-factor authentication on GitHub, and I've got, you know, a bunch of banking stuff that I have on, you know, multi-factor authentication and stuff.

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So, I'm waiting for 12-factor authentication, but that might be a bit extreme.

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All right.

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Now, you put your small pinky toe onto the key reader over there, and then you hold down this key with your other finger, and then you put your face up.

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Yeah.

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An optic scan, a blood scan, you got to, you know, deposit a urine scan, and all sorts of stuff you got to do.

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Good night.

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No.

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I'm drawing the line there.

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I'm not doing it.

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So, no, but I'm fine with it.

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I don't know the details yet, though.

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If I got to get a hardware key, though, I'm going to be a little upset.

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I think, I don't know.

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Well, there might be one for free, but yeah, even getting one for free, I feel like I'd be like, if I'm not a hardware key guy, I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Well, what if I lose it?

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So.

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Yes.

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First of all, let me preface this statement with, please don't email me.

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It's, it's, if we disagree on this, it's fine.

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Just don't email me.

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We can just agree to disagree.

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But I am personally not a fan of 2FA hardware keys because what if you lose it?

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It's really bad.

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If you, I now, all of a sudden, if I'm, what if I'm traveling and like the website is down and I've got to log into the ISP, the cloud system to make a change.

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Did I, what if I forgot to bring the key or what if I do bring it?

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Then I lose it.

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Like just the act of having a physical key that has to always be with you.

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Like, do you take it with you when you go swimming?

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I mean, I mean, that's a little extreme, but like, if you're going to go to the beach and you might need it, what are you going to do?

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And then if I only have my phone, I can't plug the key into the phone.

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I don't know.

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It just, it seems like I certainly know why you would have it at like, if I worked at a bank and I needed to get on the VPN and I needed to have that permanently stuck in my computer.

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Fine.

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But as a broad based solution, I feel like things like Authy, Google, Google authenticator, the Microsoft, whatever it's called, all those things.

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I think they still provide a pretty strong level of security while being able to travel with you and being able to synchronize across devices that you might not always have them with you.

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So yeah.

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When people say it's always such a hassle to get these keys, like you could just set up Authy.

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You know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I use Authy too.

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I'm also, I'm a little freaked out by the hardware keys.

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I did find it interesting in the giveaway.

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Actually, I think they give you a coupon to get two so that like you could get two in case you lose one.

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But that to me just is exactly why I don't want one.

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Exactly.

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Well, okay.

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So I've got one plugged into my computer and I put what one into the closet.

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If the house burns down, what am I going to do?

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I mean, I'll probably, I'll grab my phone and run maybe if I can get to it, but I'm not going to go rooting around for a hardware key.

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I'm just going to get out.

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You know what I mean?

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There's, there's just all these like sort of weird edge cases that to me, I'm just like, I don't really want to hand on one of these hardware keys.

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Yeah.

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Brian's going to have to go to the bank and his safe deposit box just to upload a new pie test check.

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Yeah, exactly.

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All right.

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I turned both keys to the right on three, two, one.

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Chink.

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Okay.

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V1, two, 1.2 is out.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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But I would just point out the article here from Armin.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Please do.

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Which was super interesting, I think.

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And it was, this kind of gets into, it'll probably lead us into the next topic here of why there was a little bit of controversy around this.

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And I think it wasn't so much that people are resistant to two factor.

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It's more this designation of packages as critical.

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And I don't know if that's just because like critical is a bit of a loaded term or it ended up feeling a little bit like a popularity contest.

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But yeah, I think it's pretty clear to me that PyPI wants to, you know, which is an open source project itself, right, wants to eventually probably roll this out to everybody and maybe doesn't have the capacity for that right now or something.

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Yeah, I totally agree.

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And Armin Peik is quite interesting.

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And he comes down a little bit, you know, on the middle.

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Like I see the value, but also I see why people are a little bit frustrated with this.

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He does talk about this thing that the Rust community has, you know, hat tip towards topic four as well, called CargoVet, which is the idea of vetted packages and unvetted packages.

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So if you, when you pip install something, you could say something like, do I only want to allow like the higher vetted packages?

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PyPI doesn't have this at the moment, but other package indexes do.

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To me, again, coming back to the hardware thing, I feel like people saw this and they thought, I've got to go to this hardware key.

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Like this seems like, I can't believe you're forcing this on me.

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If you're a software developer in 2022 and you don't have any form of 2FA setup, that's, I feel like those are the people who got really frustrated.

00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:31.520
But at the same time, like, what are you doing on the internet in 2022 without at least a few things on 2FA?

00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:36.840
My Authy account has something like 46 different 2FAs in there.

00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.060
My 1Password has like a thousand accounts.

00:12:39.060 --> 00:12:39.900
I don't know.

00:12:39.900 --> 00:12:45.160
It doesn't seem like a huge burden to hold up your phone, scan a QR code and carry on.

00:12:45.160 --> 00:12:53.960
But if you're not in the 2FA space, and especially if you perceive that to mean I got to get into the hardware 2FA space, I can see why people would see this as frustrating.

00:12:54.300 --> 00:13:02.940
And with that, maybe it's time to just move to the next topic, number two, which is IPI move to require 2FA for critical projects, which is this here.

00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:07.120
But what's really interesting is there's sort of talking about the challenges.

00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:14.740
And one of the things that happened is there's this project called Atomic Writes, which was designated as critical.

00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:19.520
Atomics Writes, what it actually does is pretty straightforward.

00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:25.260
Let's use a context manager to write to files atomically.

00:13:25.260 --> 00:13:26.960
So you can write to the file, write to the file.

00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:34.260
If there's some kind of crash or mistake or bug or something, it won't actually change the file.

00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:38.640
So normally you would just do like while true, start writing.

00:13:38.640 --> 00:13:41.740
And if something crashes, like you'll have a half written file.

00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:42.920
So this is kind of cool.

00:13:42.920 --> 00:13:46.020
It says what you're going to do is use a context manager, open a file.

00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:47.500
We're going to write to a temp file.

00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:56.060
And then when you exit the context manager successfully, we're going to apply all those changes by doing an overwrite move type of operation at the OS level.

00:13:56.060 --> 00:14:00.160
I don't know how truly atomic it is, but it sure is better than writing line by line.

00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:04.580
And certainly it has the data safety aspect, which is pretty cool.

00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:09.700
Anyway, apparently people use this as in 127,839 packages.

00:14:09.700 --> 00:14:12.840
Maybe that number was higher not long ago.

00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:16.060
Packages, projects on GitHub use this.

00:14:16.060 --> 00:14:19.780
I guess not packages, but projects, many of which were packages themselves.

00:14:19.780 --> 00:14:28.740
So this guy, Markus Unterwalitze said, you know what?

00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:30.160
This is really frustrating to me.

00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:31.580
I don't want to set up 2FA.

00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:35.600
So I'm just going to unpublish this, take it down.

00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.580
And so don't know exactly what the chain of events was.

00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:50.300
I think something happened to the GitHub repository getting deleted, which then triggered, maybe also somehow triggered a delete of all of the historical IPI packages.

00:14:50.300 --> 00:14:55.660
Whatever the steps were, it erased all the historical IPI packages.

00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:05.000
So imagine your project has a dependency on atomic writes and your requirements.txt or pyproject.toml or whatever says equal, equal.

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.560
What version are we on?

00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:07.720
We'll get some releases here.

00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:10.460
There's no releases anymore, so I can't tell you.

00:15:10.520 --> 00:15:15.100
But if you had like some concrete number there, it would say, pip would say, can't find that.

00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:15.540
Sorry.

00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:18.440
And so all sorts of started breaking.

00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:26.240
Continuous deployment, continuous integration, a bunch of PyPI, pytest packages, tests and automation and stuff.

00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.460
Brian, maybe you saw some people going, what's going on with this thing?

00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.480
I didn't really notice it.

00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.660
Well, you'd only notice if you depended upon this, had set up automation, right?

00:15:36.660 --> 00:15:40.240
Like basically check out your code, install the dependencies, run pytest.

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.300
But people are like, these tests used to pass.

00:15:42.300 --> 00:15:43.560
Why are they no longer passing?

00:15:43.560 --> 00:15:50.100
And it's because pip couldn't install this project that Marcus got a little frustrated with and deleted out of PyPI.

00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:52.240
So that's interesting, right?

00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.440
Like, should he have done that?

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:53.940
I don't know.

00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:57.640
Here's his sort of comment saying, here's what you got.

00:15:57.640 --> 00:16:07.480
And it says, PyPI just told me to enable 2FA to keep uploading this package because I thought it was annoying and entitled to guarantee the software compliance for a handful of companies.

00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:15.680
Basically, his take was, you're making me secure the supply chain so that large banks and other companies that care about it will feel better.

00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:17.760
And you're making me do extra work.

00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:25.020
Again, that I think the confusion about hardware, moving to hardware 2FA versus just scanning a QR code with your phone.

00:16:25.020 --> 00:16:27.380
Anyway, you're making me do extra work.

00:16:27.380 --> 00:16:28.560
And so I deleted the packages.

00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:31.540
Apparently, I deleted all the old versions.

00:16:31.540 --> 00:16:32.160
Sorry.

00:16:32.160 --> 00:16:38.540
Those have been restored by directly working with, I believe, Dustin Ingram from PyPI.

00:16:38.540 --> 00:16:42.920
So if you go down here somewhere, it says, no, sorry, Donald Stuff is the one who.

00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:46.780
But yeah, it shows you, I guess, unintended consequences.

00:16:46.780 --> 00:16:49.480
Hey, we're going to make atomic rights a little safer.

00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.720
Maintainer of atomic rights doesn't like that.

00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.380
Deletes it, makes everything break.

00:16:53.380 --> 00:16:54.680
Ashley, what's your take on this?

00:16:54.680 --> 00:16:55.320
You've been tracking it.

00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:56.720
Yeah.

00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:58.040
I mean, I find it really interesting.

00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:04.860
Like, it gets to the whole, you know, what is the sustainability of this giant open source ecosystem that we have?

00:17:04.860 --> 00:17:15.740
I know, I think in the show notes, you refer to this as Python's left pad incident or something like that, which is sort of a throwback to a very similar thing that happened in npm recently.

00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:27.940
And I think there was another one recently, like the start of the Ukraine war, basically, where someone, I think, pulled their package and put in something that was like protest wear or something like that.

00:17:28.580 --> 00:17:37.260
It tried to delete all the data off the hard drives if it detected you were in certain countries or something, which is a pretty, pretty rough hammer to use.

00:17:37.260 --> 00:17:38.140
Yeah, pretty extreme measure.

00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:39.580
Right.

00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:47.300
What if you were working to collect data about trying to help Ukraine, but you happen to be in this other country?

00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:52.240
I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just overstepping, I think, a little bit on intended consequences.

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:52.680
Yeah.

00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.540
But this is like, I mean, we're working in industry and having to pin our packages and stuff.

00:17:56.540 --> 00:18:00.760
This is something that, you know, we kind of already protect for by mirroring.

00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:04.660
You know, I think most people with, I'm going to use critical, not in the way that's being used here.

00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:14.080
But like when you have a project and you're using all these dependencies, it's kind of also on you to know that like, well, the supply chain, I mean, PyPI doesn't have a permanent retention policy.

00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:21.560
Maybe it should, but that is going to lead to, you know, potentially much even even bigger hosting costs and everything for what's already a really expensive project.

00:18:22.020 --> 00:18:26.380
We run into the same thing with like packages from Ubuntu and stuff like that as well.

00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:35.120
Not that they get pulled in this way, but they'll bump versions on us that, you know, and especially in a regulated industry, we can't just update dependencies whenever they come out.

00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:40.620
So, you know, it wouldn't surprise me to see IPI become immutable once it goes up there.

00:18:40.620 --> 00:18:41.780
Like you can't change it.

00:18:41.780 --> 00:18:41.980
Yeah.

00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:42.800
Or more so.

00:18:42.800 --> 00:18:43.180
Right.

00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:43.540
Yeah.

00:18:43.540 --> 00:18:43.860
Yeah.

00:18:43.860 --> 00:18:45.920
I would expect it to be more of a request thing.

00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.400
You put it in a request and say, hey, I want to, this is mine.

00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.320
I want to take it down.

00:18:49.320 --> 00:18:54.260
And some review happens or something because people depend on it.

00:18:54.260 --> 00:18:57.260
And I get, I get, I kind of get both sides of it.

00:18:57.260 --> 00:18:59.100
I get that it's my thing.

00:18:59.100 --> 00:19:00.980
I should have complete control over it.

00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:04.340
But I also don't have, I don't have complete control over GitHub.

00:19:04.340 --> 00:19:09.440
I don't have complete control over PyPI or the PSF.

00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:10.840
And I use those services.

00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:14.900
They can like the PSF, for instance, I got it.

00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:18.160
They like purge all of your accounts, like once a year or something like that.

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.140
And you have to re, you have to re log in or recreate your account.

00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:28.520
And, and, you know, get projects and services change their policies every once in a while.

00:19:28.520 --> 00:19:33.380
And, and this is a change in policy that for some projects we're going to require 2FA.

00:19:33.380 --> 00:19:34.460
They can do that.

00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:37.420
And if I want to continue to use it, I have to.

00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:42.060
Now, if I don't want to continue to use it, that that's a, I get, I guess that's where

00:19:42.060 --> 00:19:46.420
we're getting the question in is what ramifications are there?

00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:50.880
Can somebody take their, take their stuff off of PyPI or not?

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:51.900
Don't know.

00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:52.200
Yeah.

00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:52.380
So.

00:19:52.380 --> 00:19:52.860
Yep.

00:19:52.860 --> 00:19:57.140
I think that if you read a lot of the conversations here, maybe we'll just close up this whole

00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:58.060
section on that.

00:19:58.060 --> 00:20:00.420
It comes down to two different beliefs.

00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:02.580
One, I should, it's my code.

00:20:02.580 --> 00:20:03.120
I wrote it.

00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:04.120
I can do whatever I want.

00:20:04.120 --> 00:20:04.760
I own it.

00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:06.520
If I don't like it, I can just delete it.

00:20:06.800 --> 00:20:08.260
If I want to stop, I can stop.

00:20:08.260 --> 00:20:12.800
The other one says, once you put it out there on GitHub and you've put it out to the world

00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:18.120
as here's a library that you can use and depend upon, and you publish it to the index with a

00:20:18.120 --> 00:20:24.200
clear intention of sharing it, you have a minuscule responsibility not to keep working on it, but

00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.980
to not destroy it for other people who are building on what you previously did.

00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:28.420
Yeah.

00:20:28.420 --> 00:20:32.200
I think there's a difference there too, between like writing and publishing the code and publishing

00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.480
a package or distributing a package that's intended to be, you know, conveniently downloaded

00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:40.780
in CI and stuff like that, where you're kind of making a little bit more of a promise there.

00:20:40.780 --> 00:20:45.160
But also, I mean, going back to Marcus's post here, it sounds like he, his intention wasn't

00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.740
to break, you know, people's existing workflows and stuff like that.

00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:51.840
It was really, he just didn't want to be the maintainer of a critical package.

00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:53.780
Exactly.

00:20:53.780 --> 00:20:55.020
He's like, I deleted it.

00:20:55.020 --> 00:20:55.640
That fixed it.

00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:56.120
Yeah.

00:20:56.120 --> 00:21:01.140
And then became, I think this, you know, the sort of poster of this controversy.

00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:01.720
So yeah.

00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:02.300
Yeah.

00:21:02.300 --> 00:21:02.780
Yeah.

00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:03.000
Yeah.

00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.740
If you read Marcus's Twitter, you can go back and sort of, you kind of get a sense that he's

00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:12.240
the kind of person that would not want to take that kind of stuff being put upon him or

00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:12.480
whatever.

00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.640
Let's wrap it up with Teddy's comment out in the audience.

00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.280
Feels, feels like a small step to enable 2FA.

00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:18.760
I wonder why it creates so much debate.

00:21:18.760 --> 00:21:22.240
Feels a bit political, especially today where 2FA is required almost everywhere.

00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:22.700
Yeah.

00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:24.380
I'm, I agree.

00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:27.620
I think, again, I think people saw the, here's your hard work key.

00:21:27.620 --> 00:21:28.880
Like, I don't want a hard work key.

00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:29.620
There's so much work.

00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:31.260
Let's, let's move on, Brian.

00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:33.760
That was a, that was a good one, but let's fast.

00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:34.420
Let's get out of there.

00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:34.900
Yeah.

00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:36.340
Fast, a harsh transition.

00:21:36.340 --> 00:21:36.660
Yeah.

00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:39.460
Let's just talk about fast, FastAPI, you know?

00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:42.360
Anyway, don't transition from that.

00:21:42.360 --> 00:21:43.220
So that's good.

00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:46.200
FastAPI filter came up.

00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:51.300
It was suggested by Arthur Root, Arthur Rio, who is also the creator of it.

00:21:51.540 --> 00:21:52.960
And it looks pretty cool.

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.860
So it's, he, he said in a tweet, I love using, I loved using Django filter with Django rest

00:21:59.860 --> 00:22:00.240
framework.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.920
And I wanted an equivalent for FastAPI.

00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:07.620
So what this is, is this is a package you add to a project that uses FastAPI.

00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:14.240
And with it, you get like, when you're going through the cool debug user interface stuff,

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.880
you can filter stuff.

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:24.260
So you can, you know, it'll look at your, your schema and then you can, you know, filter different

00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:26.220
items and only, only see part of it.

00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:28.200
And it's just pretty neat.

00:22:28.540 --> 00:22:35.680
He also, it also has things like the filters support operators, like greater than greater

00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.700
than equal, less than not in and things like that.

00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:43.920
So it's kind of a fun way to just filter when you're looking at your data to filter it.

00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:49.540
And in his read me, he mentions that he's got a video and you kind of need a big screen

00:22:49.540 --> 00:22:55.520
for this, but, but he does have a video to, to, to show it in action, which is kind of cool.

00:22:56.040 --> 00:23:00.800
He shows filtering some of the data and then seeing the different data output.

00:23:00.800 --> 00:23:04.040
Anyway, just, just kind of a neat, nice debugging tool.

00:23:04.040 --> 00:23:05.260
If you're using FastAPI.

00:23:05.260 --> 00:23:06.380
That's really awesome.

00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:08.680
Actually, do you do anything with FastAPI?

00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.060
Unfortunately, no, this just makes me more jealous.

00:23:12.060 --> 00:23:16.860
I think of the people who get to use FastAPI, because it's got all these cool, I mean, you

00:23:16.860 --> 00:23:21.260
know, as a developer, I've played around with it, but like, it's got all these cool sort

00:23:21.260 --> 00:23:22.500
of debug admin interfaces.

00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:25.480
And then you see even more stuff like this kind of built on top of that.

00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:26.460
It's really awesome.

00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:27.580
Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:27.580 --> 00:23:28.160
Yeah.

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:34.040
And, I'm, I'm planning on learning more about FastAPI on Michael's upcoming course.

00:23:34.040 --> 00:23:36.180
So, yeah.

00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:38.060
Are you going to be able to make it, Brian?

00:23:38.060 --> 00:23:40.300
I'm going to make sure I make it.

00:23:40.300 --> 00:23:40.620
Yeah.

00:23:40.620 --> 00:23:41.180
Awesome.

00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:42.140
I'm looking forward to that.

00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:45.480
So, yeah, that's the live in-person FastAPI course.

00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.040
I'm doing it out a month from now.

00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:48.100
So it should be fun.

00:23:49.260 --> 00:23:55.320
Before we move on, I do want to talk about our sponsor for this week, Microsoft for startups

00:23:55.320 --> 00:23:56.500
founders hub.

00:23:56.500 --> 00:24:01.400
They're doing super cool stuff as someone who has started his own small business.

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It is a lot of work.

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So Microsoft for startups founders hubs provides all founders at any stage with free resources

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Founders hub is just open to everyone.

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So what do you get?

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You get, you can speed up your development with free access to GitHub and Microsoft cloud

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00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.780
it's so with the founders hub, it's not really about who, you know, you have this access

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to this mentorship network.

00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:29.540
So you get access to a pool of hundreds of mentors across a range of disciplines, areas

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like idea validation, fundraising, management, and coaching sales and marketing, and specific

00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:36.060
technical stress points.

00:25:36.060 --> 00:25:40.300
I think that might be the most valuable, honestly, is, Hey, I need to talk to this person or somebody.

00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:41.340
Is this a good idea?

00:25:41.340 --> 00:25:42.160
Is this how I should be doing?

00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:42.560
And so on.

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founders hub during the program, visit pythonbytes.fm/founders hub to click the link in your

00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.600
show notes and yeah.

00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:01.340
Thanks Microsoft for supporting the show.

00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:01.720
Nice.

00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:02.400
Indeed.

00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:05.160
So what do you got for us next, Michael?

00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:06.480
Ashley's next.

00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:07.660
I'm letting him go next.

00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:08.280
Oh, right.

00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:08.560
Okay.

00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:09.000
Yeah.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.960
We'll scroll down to mine then.

00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:11.240
yeah.

00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:15.720
So I guess I think kind of the reason I'm here, I emailed you guys after there was some

00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.920
discussion on the podcast a few weeks ago about, you know, Hey, we're seeing a lot

00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:21.160
more stuff built in rust.

00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:24.960
And you, you had some good points about like why we're seeing that.

00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:29.720
but I thought super relevant to this, podcast is, this project.

00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:35.820
And in fact, this whole organization, py03 on GitHub, has a number of projects in here

00:26:35.820 --> 00:26:39.280
that are, you know, super relevant to Python developers, obviously.

00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:42.820
So the main one I think is py03, which is, is rust bindings.

00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:47.880
and basically what I emailed you guys was that my hypothesis is the tooling around building

00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:54.560
extensions for Python in rust or calling Python from rust, is getting so good and so easy

00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:58.940
that like, for me, I find this preferable to writing C extensions, for example.

00:26:58.940 --> 00:27:04.120
Now, not even necessarily because of rust, although rust is a really great language I've

00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:05.720
been getting into over the last year.

00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:09.640
but just like that, that tooling aspect of it, is really great.

00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:09.840
Great.

00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:13.960
So that the experience is, is pretty awesome based on, you know, these separate projects.

00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:16.680
So there's py03, which is the bindings.

00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:21.200
and this allows you to basically use, these type of things that it's almost like a

00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.100
function decorator.

00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:24.140
These are called, procedural macros.

00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:27.140
They're kind of tricky to write, but they're really easy to use.

00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:31.400
So you just put this on there, and then use this one to create a module, add your function

00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:32.040
to the module.

00:27:32.040 --> 00:27:36.520
And then if you build this file, you can import it in Python, and run this function.

00:27:36.520 --> 00:27:41.500
So, the combination of, you know, the ease of writing this, and then there's another project

00:27:41.500 --> 00:27:43.240
in here, called maturing.

00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:48.060
Before you move on real quick, maybe, for, for people listening, if you go back just

00:27:48.060 --> 00:27:50.100
real quick to that, that section you had there.

00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:50.620
Yeah.

00:27:50.620 --> 00:27:56.240
So the idea is what you do is you, you write some rust code and then you put, you call it

00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.760
a decorator or an attribute or what do you call that hash?

00:27:59.300 --> 00:28:00.680
It's called a macro.

00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:01.440
Yeah.

00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.580
A procedural macro, but you can just call it a macro.

00:28:03.580 --> 00:28:03.940
Yeah.

00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:04.500
Yeah.

00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:06.740
So you put the macro onto functions.

00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:09.700
There's one function that defines the module.

00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:14.420
And then in there, you just say, here are basically all the things I'm exporting from rust over to

00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:14.720
Python.

00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.120
And those are just the ones you've wrapped with the macro, right?

00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:17.860
Mm-hmm.

00:28:17.860 --> 00:28:18.040
Yep.

00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:18.500
Yeah.

00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:23.540
Assuming that writing rust for you is straightforward, this is a really simple addition.

00:28:23.540 --> 00:28:24.100
Yeah.

00:28:24.100 --> 00:28:27.160
And I think, you know, once, once you have this kind of, you know, there's a little bit of

00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:31.680
boilerplate in here, but these macros reduce the boilerplate so much that once you're in

00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.580
the function, in fact, I think this is like a really cool way to get started with rust because

00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:40.780
some of the really steep learning curve in rust is when you're building larger projects and

00:28:40.780 --> 00:28:45.100
you have to deal with, you know, strict typing and lifetimes and all these scary things that,

00:28:45.100 --> 00:28:45.960
you know, rust can do.

00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.820
But like you're, you're limited to just a function scope because that's what you're calling from,

00:28:49.820 --> 00:28:50.560
from Python.

00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:54.000
I think it's a kind of a cool way to get started and just get familiar with the syntax.

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:54.740
Interesting.

00:28:54.740 --> 00:28:55.040
Yeah.

00:28:55.040 --> 00:28:55.420
Yeah.

00:28:55.420 --> 00:29:00.120
And yeah, I think part of the reason these tools are so great is like the whole rust community

00:29:00.120 --> 00:29:02.640
puts a lot of value on tooling.

00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.060
It's like a relatively young language.

00:29:05.060 --> 00:29:10.000
So from the start, I think it had this sort of, you know, attitude of, of building good

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.860
ergonomics for developers, having good, you know, a single command line tool kind of that

00:29:13.860 --> 00:29:15.160
can do all these different things.

00:29:15.560 --> 00:29:19.800
And so this group that, that maintains PIO3 has also created this tool called Maturin,

00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:25.920
which feels to me a lot like Flit with, you know, like the super lightweight wheel builder.

00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.720
And so you see here, you just run Maturin develop with this, this project structure in here.

00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.460
It also has like a Maturin init, I think, which will create a new project for you.

00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:38.980
And then you see here, this develop will actually, you know, give you some output, whatever,

00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:42.180
because it builds a wheel and then installs it in your virtual environment.

00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:46.480
So then you can see here, you just call into that code and then this is, you know, calling

00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.500
rust code for you already.

00:29:47.500 --> 00:29:48.180
Oh, cool.

00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:49.160
That's really nice.

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:53.980
So have you built things that you've released or are backed by rust?

00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:59.900
Not released, but like I've, I've done, you know, some hobbyist things and then also some

00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:03.120
stuff for, for work as well.

00:30:03.120 --> 00:30:08.420
Some small pieces of mostly like, you know, I work in, in, I came from a scientific background

00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:11.460
and I now work for this, you know, like I said, a portable MRI startup.

00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:15.040
So our whole thing is like Python from, from top to bottom, which is really cool.

00:30:15.040 --> 00:30:19.560
But for those performance critical numerical computing things, we use a ton of NumPy and

00:30:19.560 --> 00:30:19.840
TensorFlow.

00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:24.140
But then also, you know, some C extensions.

00:30:24.140 --> 00:30:26.560
And I've been just kind of playing around with converting those to rust.

00:30:26.560 --> 00:30:31.580
And this rust NumPy is another one of their projects here that makes it really easy to,

00:30:31.580 --> 00:30:36.460
you know, write a function that'll take a NumPy array basically and do some calculations on it.

00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:37.420
Oh, fantastic.

00:30:37.420 --> 00:30:38.780
Rust NumPy.

00:30:38.780 --> 00:30:42.920
So is it like an interoperability layer between rust and NumPy?

00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:43.460
Yeah.

00:30:43.460 --> 00:30:49.020
It pretty much just lets you like take NumPy arrays from Python into your rust functions that

00:30:49.020 --> 00:30:50.160
you're creating with PyO3.

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:55.300
And then also, you know, create NumPy arrays and return them from those functions.

00:30:56.020 --> 00:31:02.380
And it depends heavily on ND array, which is a pure rust project here for, for, for n dimensional

00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:03.660
arrays and computation.

00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:08.440
So which probably more analogous to what actually NumPy itself is, but in the rust ecosystem.

00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:09.080
Okay.

00:31:09.080 --> 00:31:09.940
Very cool.

00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:10.440
That's pretty cool.

00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.240
So why rust over C?

00:31:13.840 --> 00:31:18.480
I mean, I think it's, I was mentioning to you before, like, you know, the rust community

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.020
is, is really excited about rust.

00:31:21.020 --> 00:31:22.620
Like everyone who tries it likes it.

00:31:22.620 --> 00:31:26.760
I think it's, you know, topping the charts and, and all these, you know, most loved programming

00:31:26.760 --> 00:31:29.700
language surveys and stuff like that from Stack Overflow and everything.

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:36.160
It guarantees, you know, it provides some more stronger guarantees around memory safety,

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.360
and while still maintaining high performance.

00:31:38.360 --> 00:31:42.040
So that comes at a cost of a little bit of like complexity and learning curve.

00:31:42.040 --> 00:31:47.300
it also happens to, with those memory safety things like come with what they call

00:31:47.300 --> 00:31:52.380
fearless concurrency, where the typing system can prevent you from creating race conditions

00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:56.620
and actually warn you about them or, you know, fail to compile at compile time.

00:31:57.120 --> 00:32:03.220
and so I find like the trade-offs between, memory safety and performance and ease

00:32:03.220 --> 00:32:06.200
of use to be really interesting between rust and Python.

00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:11.300
They, they make completely different choices, but like both sort of with similar things in

00:32:11.300 --> 00:32:15.440
mind, like Python sacrifices some performance for ease of development, but still wants to

00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.520
be memory safe, right?

00:32:16.520 --> 00:32:20.340
Like if you're getting a seg fault in Python, you're, you're calling into something and doing

00:32:20.340 --> 00:32:23.060
something wrong, or it's hard to do that with pure Python code.

00:32:23.060 --> 00:32:23.300
Right.

00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:24.480
And same is true of rust.

00:32:24.540 --> 00:32:28.720
It's like if you're not writing what they call unsafe code, where you have to kind of

00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.300
wrap it in a block that's actually called unsafe, you shouldn't end up with those

00:32:32.300 --> 00:32:33.000
type of problems.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:36.000
so it's, it's kind of cool to see those two things.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.400
And then when you really do need performance, you can drop into this sort of, you know,

00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:40.180
lower level language.

00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:43.780
Maybe it's a little bit steeper learning curve, but you'll get the performance and you don't

00:32:43.780 --> 00:32:45.860
have to sacrifice that memory safety to get it.

00:32:45.860 --> 00:32:46.240
Yeah.

00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:46.900
Fantastic.

00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:49.900
Brian, you do more C stuff than I do these days.

00:32:49.900 --> 00:32:50.560
What do you think?

00:32:50.860 --> 00:32:55.360
there's, there's some bottleneck stuff that things that I use Python for that

00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:59.540
we do have, like, large amounts of data passing back and forth.

00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:04.780
And, and I don't, I mean, normally Python isn't the bottleneck, but sometimes it is.

00:33:04.780 --> 00:33:09.960
And, there are cases where I'm, I was just Googling some stuff right now, trying to

00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:13.060
figure out if I can apply rust to some of these things.

00:33:13.060 --> 00:33:18.120
Cause I actually, I think that's a, what, what, Ashley pointed out is, is fascinating

00:33:18.120 --> 00:33:24.320
is this might be a really great way to learn rust is to try to solve one of your bottleneck

00:33:24.320 --> 00:33:27.620
problems in Python with, with, with rust.

00:33:27.620 --> 00:33:34.660
And, I mean, I'm comfortable with C as well, but there's, even though I've been doing,

00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:39.460
using it for decades that I'd rather, if I can use something else, I would like to try.

00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:40.920
Something a little more modern.

00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:41.620
I totally agree.

00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:47.080
And yeah, you're right that, oh, I need to implement these three functions in rust and

00:33:47.080 --> 00:33:48.020
then plug them into Python.

00:33:48.020 --> 00:33:52.480
That's different than I need to completely learn rust so I can just do this whole project in

00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:52.760
rust.

00:33:52.760 --> 00:33:53.180
Yeah.

00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:53.540
Yeah.

00:33:53.540 --> 00:33:57.980
It's a narrow scope, kind of a cool way to, to try to learn something.

00:33:57.980 --> 00:33:58.820
So yeah.

00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:01.460
And these, these projects have like a ton of great examples.

00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:04.360
A few of them have, user guides and stuff like that.

00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:06.840
So plenty of material there to get you started.

00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:07.360
Nice.

00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:07.660
Cool.

00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:08.100
Cool.

00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:08.300
Yeah.

00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:09.060
Very, very good one.

00:34:09.060 --> 00:34:09.740
Thanks, Ashley.

00:34:09.740 --> 00:34:10.300
All right.

00:34:10.300 --> 00:34:12.540
Have you ever heard that regular expressions are easy?

00:34:12.540 --> 00:34:13.180
Yeah.

00:34:13.180 --> 00:34:14.240
Yeah.

00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:17.200
Not me, but Brian, let me, let me type something.

00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:18.020
I'm going to type this.

00:34:18.020 --> 00:34:21.900
I'm going to say, okay, I want a, a, a dot plus.

00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:24.620
And then I want, I'm going to write the word fun.

00:34:24.620 --> 00:34:28.660
I'm going to write, is it backslash D plus?

00:34:28.660 --> 00:34:32.420
I don't even know if that's a proper regular expression, but what does it, what does it do?

00:34:32.420 --> 00:34:36.100
So I want to introduce you to this site called auto regex.

00:34:36.100 --> 00:34:39.360
And this comes to us from Jason, Jason Washburn.

00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:40.860
Thank you, Jason, for sending this over.

00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:44.800
And the idea is I can put a regex in here and hit go.

00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:45.400
Wait.

00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:46.640
Oh, hold on.

00:34:46.640 --> 00:34:47.640
Let me just do this one.

00:34:47.640 --> 00:34:49.760
Do a simple one for a second.

00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.120
What am I missing here?

00:34:51.120 --> 00:34:52.560
I think you have that.

00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:53.260
It's backwards.

00:34:53.260 --> 00:34:54.000
You're going English.

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:54.520
It's backwards.

00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:55.140
Yeah.

00:34:55.140 --> 00:34:55.380
Yeah.

00:34:55.380 --> 00:34:55.580
Yeah.

00:34:55.580 --> 00:34:55.600
Yeah.

00:34:55.600 --> 00:34:56.660
So why was it doing that?

00:34:56.660 --> 00:34:57.940
That was, yeah.

00:34:57.940 --> 00:34:59.440
So first of all, yeah.

00:34:59.440 --> 00:34:59.600
Okay.

00:34:59.600 --> 00:35:00.440
So let's start with that direction.

00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:01.740
That's the default direction it pulls up.

00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:07.900
So what I can do is say, I want a regex that, starts with fun, then any number,

00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:08.620
write that.

00:35:08.620 --> 00:35:09.020
Okay.

00:35:09.020 --> 00:35:12.040
And so then it says, oh, you know what?

00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:17.200
What you want is carrot fun dot star regex.

00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:18.020
Mm-hmm.

00:35:18.020 --> 00:35:18.980
Mm.

00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:19.800
Is that right?

00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.600
It's not quite right.

00:35:20.600 --> 00:35:24.400
Well, this, this is starts, starts with.

00:35:24.600 --> 00:35:26.680
But dot star, I think is any character, right?

00:35:26.680 --> 00:35:27.160
Yeah.

00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:30.180
Oh, then how about, yeah, it's not perfect.

00:35:30.180 --> 00:35:31.500
Then the same numbers.

00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:32.160
There you go.

00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:33.280
Oh, there you go.

00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:33.880
Yeah.

00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:35.300
You gotta, it's not perfect.

00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:39.320
You gotta understand the English, but I wrote an English sentence to it and it came up with

00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:40.180
a regular expression.

00:35:40.180 --> 00:35:44.940
It says, disclaimer, all outputs are generated by open AI's GDP three.

00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:46.380
Sometimes it makes sense.

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:47.220
Sometimes it doesn't.

00:35:47.220 --> 00:35:48.780
But you could also do the reverse.

00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:49.300
Yeah.

00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:50.100
Let's do the reverse.

00:35:50.100 --> 00:35:50.620
All right.

00:35:50.620 --> 00:35:52.400
I'm going to make, I'll try to go back to my other one.

00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:57.900
So I'll say carrot, then dot plus, and then fun, then backslash.

00:35:57.900 --> 00:35:59.460
Let's try that.

00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:00.840
And do it in reverse.

00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:02.560
So I'm going to run it again.

00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:03.780
And you wait for a second.

00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:07.200
It says, the regular expression means the string must start with any character.

00:36:07.200 --> 00:36:10.580
Then there must be one or more characters before the substring fun.

00:36:10.580 --> 00:36:14.340
And then there may be any number of digits after the substring fun.

00:36:14.340 --> 00:36:15.260
What do you think about that?

00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:15.960
It's not quite right.

00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:17.680
I think it only matches one number.

00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:18.620
Yeah, maybe it only matches one.

00:36:18.620 --> 00:36:19.280
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.760
But still.

00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:24.100
The trick for me, too, is that regular expressions are different depending on your platform.

00:36:24.100 --> 00:36:25.580
That's what always tricks me up.

00:36:25.580 --> 00:36:26.420
I'm like, which ones?

00:36:26.420 --> 00:36:26.680
Exactly.

00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:31.160
So this is a really cool tool to almost understand regular expressions.

00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:32.880
Yeah.

00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.640
So here's how I would perceive this.

00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:38.840
I would say, I wouldn't use this and just go writing all my regular expressions.

00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.000
But if I'm like, I really don't know how to get a regular expression to do that.

00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:43.500
Yeah.

00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:47.780
You could go write the English sentence and it might come up with either the right answer

00:36:47.780 --> 00:36:52.440
or something close enough that it's like, you know, okay, I see where it's going now.

00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:53.900
It's not quite matching, but let me.

00:36:53.900 --> 00:37:01.060
I would call this more of a guide or like a signpost along the way, not the tool to build it.

00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:05.640
I could see it being super useful with like, I think there's a site, regexer or something

00:37:05.640 --> 00:37:11.120
like that, where you can basically write a bunch of test cases and then your regex and

00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:14.220
have it run against them all in your browser and see it right there.

00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:18.340
And that's like, when I have to write regular expressions, that's how I do it.

00:37:18.340 --> 00:37:20.760
Like write a bunch of tests in here and get it to work.

00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:24.800
I maybe should be writing the tests in my own code and actually putting them in as tests,

00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:26.500
but I do it in this.

00:37:26.640 --> 00:37:29.520
But yeah, if you kind of integrate those two tools together, I could see this being

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:29.840
useful.

00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:30.380
Okay.

00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:31.240
Yeah, for sure.

00:37:31.240 --> 00:37:36.460
We take the example one over here and we could put it into this there and see what it says.

00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:39.440
So the regex is create a group that is a word.

00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.780
And then you got a piece, at least some white space there.

00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:42.880
What do we get if we run that?

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:46.560
The regular expression matches any word that begins with an uppercase letter.

00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:47.380
That's pretty cool.

00:37:47.380 --> 00:37:48.000
It does.

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:48.440
Yeah.

00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:49.900
Anyway, fun.

00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:50.900
People can check it out.

00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:52.400
More regex fun.

00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.900
Thanks Jason for sending that in.

00:37:54.180 --> 00:37:58.380
And then Ashley, you also pointed out that Simon Wilson wrote an article on this.

00:37:58.380 --> 00:37:59.620
I don't know anything about this.

00:37:59.620 --> 00:38:00.560
I just saw this in the notes.

00:38:00.560 --> 00:38:04.920
Yeah, he was actually, so it's sort of related because it's GPT-3 and code.

00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.940
And I mean, even this first one has some regular expression stuff in it, but I guess there's

00:38:08.940 --> 00:38:10.220
a mode with GPT-3.

00:38:10.220 --> 00:38:14.100
I haven't really played with this, but you can like paste in code and then start asking it

00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:17.060
questions about it, like in a sort of conversational manner.

00:38:17.060 --> 00:38:19.400
And his blog post, I thought was really cool.

00:38:19.560 --> 00:38:23.620
One thing I did see pointed out was similar to what we were just talking about is apparently

00:38:23.620 --> 00:38:29.100
the AI model, like the chatbot can be very scarily confident in its answers.

00:38:29.100 --> 00:38:31.240
And sometimes it's very confidently wrong.

00:38:31.240 --> 00:38:35.920
Like, so you have to not be lulled into the false sense of security there.

00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:36.840
Yeah, for sure.

00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:37.160
Cool.

00:38:37.160 --> 00:38:39.680
You definitely do have to take it with a grain of salt.

00:38:39.680 --> 00:38:41.620
All right, Brian, close this out here.

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000
Okay, so Philippe sent us this next topic, and he's working for Python Anywhere.

00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.460
So anyway, he's one of the insiders.

00:38:53.460 --> 00:39:00.180
Anaconda acquires Python Anywhere to expand the Python team collaboration in the cloud.

00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:04.600
So not expand the team, expand Python team collaboration.

00:39:04.600 --> 00:39:12.620
So this is an interesting, we're linking to an article from Anaconda press release just saying,

00:39:12.620 --> 00:39:17.080
yeah, we bought Python Anywhere or, you know, acquired him.

00:39:17.080 --> 00:39:18.600
So it's interesting.

00:39:18.600 --> 00:39:24.780
I think I'm going to jump to another thing before I guess give my feedback.

00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:30.840
One of the things here, it says from the announcement, the acquisition comes on the heels of Anaconda's

00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:35.220
release of PyScript, an open source framework for running Python applications with HTML.

00:39:35.220 --> 00:39:36.440
We've covered that.

00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:43.140
The Python Anywhere acquisition and the development of PyScript are central to Anaconda's focus on

00:39:43.140 --> 00:39:45.880
democratizing Python and data science.

00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.600
So I'm going to be optimistic and not pessimistic on this.

00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:52.120
I think hopefully it's a good thing.

00:39:52.120 --> 00:39:58.760
And then on the Python Anywhere site blog, there's a FAQ about the acquisition.

00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:04.640
And it kind of goes through, like, from the customer standpoint, you know, will this affect

00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:05.480
my account?

00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:07.020
Will the billing change?

00:40:07.020 --> 00:40:10.200
Basically, they're going to keep everything the same, at least for now.

00:40:10.200 --> 00:40:15.500
And but hopefully it will expand its services and stuff and make things better.

00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:17.240
My personal take on it.

00:40:17.240 --> 00:40:23.060
So is that I'm hoping Python Anywhere is a cool idea, but I haven't seen much from them lately.

00:40:23.060 --> 00:40:27.360
So I'm hoping this will breathe some life into Python Anywhere.

00:40:27.520 --> 00:40:31.140
Yeah, I'm not saying it's dead, but I just it'd be cool to see it grow.

00:40:31.140 --> 00:40:32.420
So fun fact.

00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:38.340
Talk Python itself started out on Python Anywhere for a month or so because I'm like, I want to

00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:38.840
get this up.

00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:42.500
And it's kind of complicated to figure out all the Linux and its next stuff.

00:40:42.500 --> 00:40:44.700
And it seems real easy to just fire it up over here.

00:40:44.700 --> 00:40:46.100
And it worked great for a while.

00:40:46.100 --> 00:40:51.280
But eventually moved off as like, you know, started doing 15 terabytes of traffic a month.

00:40:52.160 --> 00:40:52.600
Yeah.

00:40:52.600 --> 00:40:53.320
Yeah.

00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:55.660
So anyway, I'd love to see that coming along.

00:40:55.660 --> 00:40:56.520
That seems great.

00:40:56.520 --> 00:40:58.600
Let me share also one more other thing.

00:40:58.600 --> 00:41:02.280
So on the screen, I have python.org and it shows you a code sample.

00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.620
Has anyone clicked this little thing up here on the right?

00:41:05.620 --> 00:41:07.760
This little shell looking thing?

00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:10.260
Yeah, I have before, but I don't remember what it does.

00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:10.760
What?

00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:12.580
Oh, nice.

00:41:12.580 --> 00:41:15.320
So it opens up a Python REPL.

00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.720
That Python REPL is running on Python Anywhere.

00:41:17.720 --> 00:41:21.940
Yeah, and one of the cool things about Python Anywhere is this ability, this ability to just

00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:23.680
like run it from any device.

00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:29.640
So you can run this from a tablet or a Chromebook or something without installing anything.

00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:31.760
And that's neat.

00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:33.460
I'd like to see that expand.

00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:34.040
Cool idea.

00:41:34.040 --> 00:41:34.940
Yeah, it sure is.

00:41:34.940 --> 00:41:36.600
And I can see how this pairs with PyScript.

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:38.280
So this is in my browser.

00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:41.900
I can just run Python and get a view into a REPL.

00:41:41.900 --> 00:41:45.380
But with PyScript, I maybe just move the execution to the front end as well.

00:41:45.380 --> 00:41:47.080
So they're kind of related in that regard.

00:41:47.080 --> 00:41:53.560
Yeah, there's actually a few things I'd really love to see Python Anywhere change with this

00:41:53.560 --> 00:41:58.760
is the currently Python Anywhere doesn't support Python 310.

00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.460
Hopefully we can get that updated.

00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:07.420
And it doesn't it or you can run whiskey apps, but you cannot run ASCII right now.

00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:09.700
So no FastAPI on there.

00:42:09.820 --> 00:42:12.640
So that's hopefully that will be fixed.

00:42:12.640 --> 00:42:18.120
But and then also the free plan doesn't allow you to do Jupyter Notebooks.

00:42:18.120 --> 00:42:21.400
And with I'm guessing with Anaconda in there, that might be.

00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:22.300
It probably will.

00:42:22.300 --> 00:42:24.040
I would suspect it would.

00:42:24.040 --> 00:42:24.540
All right.

00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:25.220
How about extras?

00:42:25.220 --> 00:42:27.740
Got just a couple minutes left for those.

00:42:27.740 --> 00:42:28.840
I've got nothing.

00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:29.540
Ashley?

00:42:29.540 --> 00:42:29.860
Nothing?

00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.960
I had a couple in here.

00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.220
Not a whole lot to say about them, but that's, I guess, why they're extras.

00:42:35.220 --> 00:42:36.900
Pep691.

00:42:36.900 --> 00:42:40.720
There's a new JSON based simple API for PyPI.

00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:42.260
So more PyPI news there.

00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:47.980
This is like for tools like pip, I guess, that are sort of, you know, indexing packages

00:42:47.980 --> 00:42:49.840
and stuff like that or going on a search for packages.

00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:53.420
Like, we'll now be able to parse JSON instead of, I guess, up until now they've been parsing

00:42:53.420 --> 00:42:55.840
HTML, which was a surprise to me.

00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:56.880
You can go to somewhere.

00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:57.900
Yeah.

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:01.520
You go somewhere on pypi.org slash something, something simple.

00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:06.540
And you just get a wall of links and you get like 350,000 links, which is not an ideal

00:43:06.540 --> 00:43:08.480
way to like, it doesn't seem like the best.

00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:08.880
Yeah.

00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:13.120
It's cool because I guess it can be like, it can serve those as static files, right?

00:43:13.120 --> 00:43:17.160
So that's why like, instead of having, you know, dynamic web app that you have to worry

00:43:17.160 --> 00:43:20.560
about loading all this stuff, it's just like an Nginx server pointed at a huge directory.

00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:25.240
But this allows those same servers, I guess, to serve JSON instead of HTML.

00:43:25.240 --> 00:43:25.880
It's neat.

00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:26.520
Yeah, great.

00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:35.220
And then rich codecs is a tool for like automatically creating these terminal screenshots from stuff

00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:36.200
in your documentation.

00:43:36.500 --> 00:43:40.680
Mostly I thought we can't have a Python bytes episode without something related to rich,

00:43:40.680 --> 00:43:41.000
right?

00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:41.280
So.

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.480
That's right.

00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:42.960
That's right.

00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:43.440
Check this out.

00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:48.660
If you've got, if you're using rich or, and want to, you know, make some screenshots that

00:43:48.660 --> 00:43:49.860
stay up to date with your code.

00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:50.260
Yeah.

00:43:50.260 --> 00:43:54.160
Some color coded code blocks in your, your markdown.

00:43:54.160 --> 00:43:54.760
Yeah, for sure.

00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:55.160
Very nice.

00:43:55.160 --> 00:43:55.540
Yeah.

00:43:55.540 --> 00:43:56.080
All right.

00:43:56.080 --> 00:43:56.500
All right.

00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:58.420
I just have a quick one for an extra here.

00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:05.620
There's an article on DevJobs Scanner, the top eight most in demand programming languages.

00:44:05.620 --> 00:44:09.400
So we've got JavaScript, TypeScript, that's number one, but Python number two.

00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.180
I bring this up because I was doing a live stream on Talk Python and somebody came along

00:44:13.180 --> 00:44:15.440
and said, hey, should I still be learning Python?

00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.020
I heard that it's really hard to get a job and there's not a lot of interest in that.

00:44:19.020 --> 00:44:20.520
So yeah.

00:44:20.520 --> 00:44:22.720
Well, anyway, I'm not sure what else you choose.

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:28.840
And again, this JavaScript stuff, it's like, it's like being a CSS, full stack CSS developer.

00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:36.400
You might have to have JavaScript skills to do Python stuff or to do ASP.NET or to do

00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:37.200
whatever else, right?

00:44:37.200 --> 00:44:41.620
Like there's a, JavaScript is unique in the sense that a lot of times it's paired with other

00:44:41.620 --> 00:44:44.300
things, whereas those other things are often more standalone.

00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:45.080
You know what I mean?

00:44:45.080 --> 00:44:50.320
So maybe the fact that JavaScript is up there because like every other language below it also

00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.120
needs JavaScript plus, I'm not exactly sure what the metric is here.

00:44:54.120 --> 00:44:56.480
If this is like how you, how you pull that out.

00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:00.100
But anyway, take it with a bit of grain of salt, but I think this is pretty good.

00:45:00.100 --> 00:45:00.660
All right.

00:45:00.660 --> 00:45:02.360
Are you all ready for a joke?

00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:03.920
Because Brian, you have started something.

00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:04.740
I have.

00:45:04.740 --> 00:45:05.160
Okay.

00:45:05.160 --> 00:45:05.900
You have.

00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:11.140
So remember we had the, I don't remember what the exact topic was, but we talked about,

00:45:11.140 --> 00:45:16.220
we talked about this, this, oh, this was, what is the junior dev see themselves

00:45:16.220 --> 00:45:18.600
in five years and what is the senior dev?

00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:25.320
So this woman, Neda, she has just an amazing set of jokes.

00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:29.760
And so you're going to be hearing more than one of these, but let's, let's, let's look at

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:30.120
this one.

00:45:30.120 --> 00:45:31.280
They're so good.

00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:31.880
They're so good.

00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:33.320
I'm obviously linking to the show notes.

00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:36.280
So here's an example of people.

00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:42.300
I think what the story is here is these two women, they live in this apartment complex and

00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:45.580
they, they're in an elevator with some of their neighbors.

00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:49.940
And there's this, this older woman says, so what do you girls do for a living?

00:45:49.940 --> 00:45:52.120
One of the women says, ah, I'm an architect.

00:45:52.120 --> 00:45:54.360
Oh, and Neda, she's a programmer.

00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:56.160
And you just see the crap emoji.

00:45:56.160 --> 00:45:57.020
Like, oh no.

00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:00.780
Later on, Neda receives the knock at the door.

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:03.580
And this old woman is like, there's a problem with my phone.

00:46:03.580 --> 00:46:07.140
And then there's like another, another guy with a beard that shows up with just showing

00:46:07.140 --> 00:46:08.100
the laptop to her.

00:46:08.100 --> 00:46:13.200
And then there's like a whole line of people with like printers and all kinds of stuff.

00:46:13.200 --> 00:46:15.480
Just basically, oh, you're our tech support now.

00:46:16.220 --> 00:46:17.780
I, I so have lived this.

00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:18.620
Yeah.

00:46:18.620 --> 00:46:19.140
Yeah.

00:46:19.140 --> 00:46:21.020
I have to actually, oh, go ahead.

00:46:21.020 --> 00:46:21.420
Sorry.

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:22.340
Yeah.

00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:22.940
No, Ashley.

00:46:22.940 --> 00:46:24.080
Do you get this?

00:46:24.080 --> 00:46:26.660
not so much anymore, I guess.

00:46:26.660 --> 00:46:30.660
But I, this was definitely like my experience in the dorms.

00:46:30.660 --> 00:46:31.080
I remember.

00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:35.780
well, I mean, like now you could say I work on an MRI machines and nobody will ask you

00:46:35.780 --> 00:46:35.900
that.

00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:37.140
They don't want you to fix it.

00:46:37.140 --> 00:46:37.980
They don't have one.

00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:41.520
So no, they'll, they'll start, start telling you their medical problems and stuff like that.

00:46:41.520 --> 00:46:42.000
Yeah.

00:46:42.160 --> 00:46:44.820
So my first job out of college was with HP.

00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:48.560
I was working with satellite test systems.

00:46:48.560 --> 00:46:54.540
but, everybody just heard HP and wanted me to figure out how to configure their computer

00:46:54.540 --> 00:46:55.320
or their printer.

00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:57.500
can you get my printer on my network?

00:46:57.500 --> 00:46:58.160
Brian.

00:46:58.160 --> 00:46:59.740
And it's really gotten slow lately.

00:46:59.740 --> 00:47:00.780
I get a lot of pop-ups.

00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:04.740
Like, no, I don't, I don't know how to fix that.

00:47:04.740 --> 00:47:07.200
On purpose.

00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:08.640
I don't know how to fix that.

00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.600
Awesome.

00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:12.460
Well, that's all I got, Brian.

00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:13.120
Okay.

00:47:13.120 --> 00:47:14.020
Well, thanks.

00:47:14.020 --> 00:47:14.900
Thanks for the joke.

00:47:14.900 --> 00:47:15.760
I love that one.

00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:17.160
we could have more of these.

00:47:17.160 --> 00:47:17.360
Yeah.

00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.200
And, thanks Ashley for joining us.

00:47:20.200 --> 00:47:26.500
And, and I really appreciate you talking about, the rust, rust Python stuff.

00:47:26.500 --> 00:47:28.780
That's, that's, we've been curious about that.

00:47:28.780 --> 00:47:29.500
Oh, yeah.

00:47:29.500 --> 00:47:30.500
Really happy to be here.

00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:31.220
Thanks for having me on.

00:47:31.220 --> 00:47:31.760
All right.

00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:32.920
Well, bye everybody.