WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.200 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:11.520 This is episode 353, recorded September 18th, 2023. I am Brian Okken. 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:12.720 And I am Michael Kennedy. 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:20.280 This episode is brought to you by us. So please check out Talk Python Training and the new Python 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:24.800 Testing with pytest course that's in progress, but already awesome. And also thank you to our 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:31.760 supporters. And if you want to connect to any of us, you've got Python Bytes and Brian Okken and 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:37.820 M Kennedy all on Fosstodon and the links are in the show notes. So let's kick it off with our first 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:44.760 AI topic, Michael. Let's ask the AI what our first topic should be. Let's go to Stack Overflow and ask 00:00:44.760 --> 00:00:51.820 them what our first AI topic should be. No, seriously. So Stack Overflow has announced Overflow AI, 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:55.960 which is not I'm sure they have, you know, they've got Stack Exchange with all sorts of different 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:02.100 things like stuff for Linux, stuff for Mac, DevOps, you know, you name it. Yeah. So I don't think this 00:01:02.100 --> 00:01:09.460 is not another AI overflow type thing in that sense. This is adding generative AI to Stack Overflow. 00:01:09.460 --> 00:01:15.140 All right. Okay. So the best way to kind of get a sense of what's going on here is there's a little 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:20.060 video, a three minute video that seems like it could be about 45 seconds given how much content is in it. 00:01:20.060 --> 00:01:25.940 But you know, spend 30 minutes with them and you'll get an example. So the most relevant portion, 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:30.260 there's some stuff that we don't care about here, but the most relevant portion is when you go to 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:36.500 Stack Overflow, you search for an answer. It gives you a list of results, right? Those results are based on 00:01:36.500 --> 00:01:42.220 traditional search, right? You know, keyword matches. And honestly, it does surprisingly well, 00:01:42.220 --> 00:01:49.300 when you go search there. But they're changing their search and this is maybe it's out now. I have a hard time 00:01:49.300 --> 00:01:55.180 time telling if it's out now as a preview you can sign up for, but you go to Stack Overflow and you 00:01:55.180 --> 00:02:01.060 search for something now you get like a ChatGPT like response if you want. And it'll say, here are 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:07.540 some of the possible answers, but here's also just a, you know, like if you search Google or a Kagi, you 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:12.060 might get a little snippet that just shows you the answer from Stack Overflow without taking it there. 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:16.060 It's kind of like that. It'll say, and here's a little bit of an answer. And then you can actually 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:20.500 start a conversation about it. Like you would with ChatGPT, like that's cool, but it doesn't quite 00:02:20.500 --> 00:02:26.260 apply. How would you, you know, I don't, I'm not using Selenium for this. I'm using Pyrite. Could you 00:02:26.260 --> 00:02:32.260 give me an example of the same, the same process, but with Pyrite, you know, it'll try to give you the 00:02:32.260 --> 00:02:37.780 answer. Right. So that's all pretty cool. And they're integrating generative AI into the public 00:02:37.780 --> 00:02:43.180 platform into Stack Overflow for teams. I didn't know Stack Overflow for teams existed, but if I had a 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:48.740 team, it would look really cool to use, but not, not in a huge corporation, not a ton of people 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:56.180 working on stuff. So they're also planning to add at the moment VS Code integration or Stack Overflow 00:02:56.180 --> 00:03:01.520 and the Stack Overflow AI. So you can just like, you know, you've got your source control section, 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:06.880 your file section. It's just got a Stack Overflow section where you can start talking to it and get 00:03:06.880 --> 00:03:12.520 generative AI answers out of Stack Overflow. So I find there's a little bit of irony here, Brian. 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:20.560 In that Stack Overflow was banning answers from ChatGPT. Now they're adding a feature that lets you 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:27.160 have a conversation and query it using generative AI, which seems normal. However, one of the features 00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:32.740 they highlight in the video is you can say, none of this applies to me. AI helped me draft a question. 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:37.580 So the answers can't be generative AI, but the questions can be generative AI. 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:38.420 Interesting. 00:03:38.420 --> 00:03:48.560 For the right source of AI, right? Origin, right? The Overflow AI, ChatGPT. So this is in private alpha, 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:54.000 I guess, is the current form. But I went to, I went there, the way I discovered is I went to search for 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.600 something on Stack Overflow. I said, do you want to try out the new Overflow AI search? I'm like, yes. 00:03:58.600 --> 00:04:03.720 What is this? This looks very interesting. And in my profile under settings, I have the ability to 00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:07.340 have that turned on. It is turned on, but when I go to do search stuff, it doesn't seem to use it. 00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:11.860 So I think it's like fading in and out as they're making changes to it. But yeah, people can check 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:16.880 that out. And then finally, VS Code extension looks cool. Where's our PyCharm one? Come on, 00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:21.400 bring it on, bring it on. I want this in PyCharm too. PyCharm also added its own little AI 00:04:21.400 --> 00:04:26.760 assistant, but I'm, I'm waiting for it to get better. Yeah, you can. Yeah, it's pretty cool. 00:04:26.760 --> 00:04:32.300 But it's, it's not something I'm totally embracing yet. I just wanted to be, I'd like it when it rolls 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:38.300 out completely. I'd like it to be able to be able to know, did this come from a person or from an AI? 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:45.640 Or was it some mix of the two or something? I don't know. Right. Kind of like with, and I, 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:54.000 and I kind of agree with them for not allowing AI people to just throw the, throw the question 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.340 into ChatGPT and paste the answer into stack overflow. That's, that's not, that's not what 00:04:58.340 --> 00:05:03.780 people are expecting. So. Right. And if you want that, just put your question straight in ChatGPT, 00:05:03.780 --> 00:05:12.320 like leave out the stack overflow middle aspect. I'm sure the real concern was, you know, there's a lot 00:05:12.320 --> 00:05:16.460 of reputation stuff. There's a lot of like, this person is really good at answering questions and 00:05:16.460 --> 00:05:21.320 here's how much you've contributed. And if you just, you know, you could easily game that with AI 00:05:21.320 --> 00:05:28.120 results and I'm sure it is being gained with AI results just with a little more work, but you know, 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:35.260 such as the world. Yeah. It's the times are a changing. So they, they are, that's what ChatGPT 00:05:35.260 --> 00:05:40.440 told me anyway. How about you? What's your next one? Well, I was going to talk about 00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:46.480 switching to hatch. So, for packaging for Python packaging and also setting up virtual 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:52.540 environments and stuff, I guess. So hatches, I'm okay. So for packaging, we had set up tools 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:59.300 and then we had lots of stuff. We had like flit and hatchling and poetry and all sorts of things. 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:06.040 so, hatch, there's two parts to hatch. There's hatchling, which is the backend that helps 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:12.420 you build and unbuild packages and stuff. And then there's, there's hatch, which is built. 00:06:12.420 --> 00:06:17.560 It has hatchling as part of it, but anyway, let's go through this. There's an article from Oliver 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:23.700 and rich talking about switching to hatch. and great graphic, by the way, there's a graphic 00:06:23.700 --> 00:06:28.460 that says, I don't know where I'm going from here, but I promise it won't be boring. That's 00:06:28.460 --> 00:06:36.000 pretty cool. anyway, he was using poetry, looked at PDM and now he's thinking about hatch. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:41.880 It's, possibly his new love. We don't know. It's a question mark. So, there's, there's a 00:06:41.880 --> 00:06:46.360 sentence here that bothers me and we can get back to it, but it says some prominent projects are using 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:52.720 are enjoy using it or using hatch. I don't know if that's true, but let's go on. He does show some 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:57.740 really cool things with, with hatch, which I didn't know it could do. For instance, when you 00:06:57.740 --> 00:07:03.680 say hatch new project, it creates a new PI project.toml file. One of the things it does in that is it 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:09.260 creates these, these entry points to, environment like virtual environments. And they're 00:07:09.260 --> 00:07:15.240 separate ones for things like there's a default one. And then there's a test one that has like your 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:22.080 PI test and plugins and stuff. Then there's linting that has like pyrite and black and rough and things 00:07:22.080 --> 00:07:27.740 in it. his question really was, why would I have like, why wouldn't I have like, just a dev 00:07:27.740 --> 00:07:33.660 virtual environment, but we're using a lot of extra tools now they might have dependencies that clash. 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:39.840 So if you do have dependencies that clash, maybe a separate virtual environment for each type of tool 00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:44.240 chain might be interesting. You are speaking my language now. I didn't really think about that, 00:07:44.320 --> 00:07:52.280 but there's about a 50, 50 chance. If I say update all the dependencies for Talk Python Training, which I 00:07:52.280 --> 00:07:57.640 think is about 50, there's the runtime ones. And then there's the reporting dev ones. And that includes 00:07:57.640 --> 00:08:03.280 some things like Jupyter notebooks for graphs and stuff. Yeah. There's about a 50, 50 chance that I'll 00:08:03.280 --> 00:08:09.240 get an error saying cannot find any solution to these requirements that you're asking for because something in the 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:16.240 data science stack forces something to be less than or equal to, and something in the other stack is greater than or equal to. 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:26.200 So if you're not intersecting and you're like, well, yeah, it still runs fine. And I'm sure it'll be okay. But it's like, I'm constantly 00:08:26.200 --> 00:08:34.160 doing a dev environment and a dev tools environment in a runtime environment is actually pretty, pretty cool idea. 00:08:34.160 --> 00:08:44.120 So if you're not going to be able to do that, you're going to be able to do that. 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:57.120 You can also do scripts. So each environment can have its own set of scripts. So you could have linting scripts and testing scripts and docs scripts and things like that. Like, for instance, one of the linting ones, you could say, run black, and it has all of your black arguments or something. 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:15.120 You can have that. That's pretty, it's kind of neat. No need to use talks. This surprised me. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:28.120 Apparently, there's a matrix ability for hatch. So you can do a test matrix, test matrices within hatch. I don't know if you can do other, why would you do a docs matrix though? 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:41.120 You know, so test matrix makes sense. I don't know if it makes sense anywhere else. But that's kind of neat. And then the last bit I thought was pretty cool was that, well, for what it has scripts, but I don't know if it's very convenient. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:53.120 So like, say you have a Cove script for coverage within your test environment, you would run it by saying hatch run test colon Cove. It's kind of a mouthful still. So I'm not sure. 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:54.120 It is. Yeah. 00:09:54.120 --> 00:10:10.120 Optional dependencies are kind of neat. You there's all most tools have optional dependencies, but the apparently hatch has a kind of a neat way to say so let's say in the example, you had to have two different optional dependencies for my SQL or Postgres, depending on what database you want to install. 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:17.120 database you want to install. A default could be just saying my SQL and it would pull in all of the requirements for my SQL. 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:45.120 You just so you can there's an easy way to do sort of a transitive default set. So it's kind of cool. Anyway, nice. The thing I wanted to come back with was the comment of like everybody's using it. I don't think everybody's using it. If the in if you look at the hatch website, it does say all these different projects are using hatch. But some of them, it's obvious they're using hatchling. Like most of my projects use hatchling. That's not the same as using hatch. 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.120 Yeah, it could just be the build back. Yeah, just for building the wheels. Right? 00:10:48.120 --> 00:11:10.120 Exactly. That build back in is rock solid and I recommend it. The hatch is sort of the work with the top hatches that workflow tool is similar to poetry. So but still cool. I kind of like that. Poetry kind of makes you at least last time I tried it. It's sort of in had you take all of the tools with it. But hatch is more of a use the tools you want sort of a tool. So anyway. Yeah. 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:28.120 Kind of cool. So nice. I just checked while we were talking. You did. What did I say 48 or something for the number of dependencies? Yeah, it's insane. I don't know how I got to where 232 packages to run Talk Python Training with the reporting. I can't easily separate the dev versus runtime. 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:55.120 Yeah, that like more work. But yes, that's a lot of packages. And that's a it's like, are you sure you're not using like, go or something else that uses tons of dependencies? JavaScript? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying it's a problem. It's just there's with 232. There's a chance there's a reasonable chance that a bunch, you know, a good bunch of those come from the non runtime stuff. There's a good chance that there's a clash between them. So this idea of multiple virtual environments. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:11:55.120 --> 00:12:24.940 I'm assuming most of those are transitive. You're using some tool that's using some other tool. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cool. Okay, on to the next. Hold on. Comment from Mark in the audience says, Yeah, I feel like hatchling but not hatch is a fairly common pattern. When mentioned on Doc Python to me. Yeah. Awesome. Speaking of, speaking of, I just want to point out that episode 408 earlier this year, 00:12:24.940 --> 00:12:32.560 I had ofech on the creator of hatch, talk about hatch and its benefits and all those different things. So cool. 00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:38.260 People can check that if they can, but let's talk formatting code. Formatting code equals black. Yes. 00:12:38.260 --> 00:12:50.260 Yeah. And others and others rough. However, rough checks your code formatting for correctness. And we've, we've discussed how fast rough is right to the point where it's like, Hmm. 00:12:50.260 --> 00:12:57.220 Did I actually check the code? Did I enter the wrong, the wrong directory and there just found no contents, right? That kind of thing. Right. 00:12:57.880 --> 00:13:08.080 Well, this was sent over to us from sky. So thank you sky for sending in. Charlie Marsh, creator of rough has announced the Ruff formatter. 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:17.500 So not just telling you what's wrong, but checking for errors, but formatting your code based on convention, similar, but not identical to black. 00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:24.280 Black. So that's pretty cool. Let me read a few things that sky sent over here. Cause I think it's their experiences worthwhile. 00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:34.060 So Charlie says, first of all, the formatter is designed to be a drop in replacement for black, but with an excessive focus on performance and direct integration with rough. 00:13:34.060 --> 00:13:35.000 That's pretty cool. Right. 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:49.820 Right. So sky says, I can't find any benchmarks that have been released yet, but I did some extremely unscientific testing caveat there and found the Ruff formatter to be five to 10 times faster than black when running on already formatted code or in a small code base. 00:13:49.820 --> 00:13:55.700 So five to 10 times faster, but 75 times faster when running on a large code base of unformatted code. 00:13:55.700 --> 00:14:03.300 However, they point out that the second outcome is not that relevant because how many times do you format huge projects that are not formatted? 00:14:03.300 --> 00:14:05.240 No, normally it's incremental, right? 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:10.080 So the smaller bits is maybe worth paying attention to more there. 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.320 Yeah. 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.760 So I almost missed this announcement because rough already had some, go ahead and fix it. 00:14:16.760 --> 00:14:18.100 If you can features. 00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:18.420 Yeah. 00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:19.720 I did have a few fix it things. 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:20.380 Yeah, exactly. 00:14:20.380 --> 00:14:26.320 And like I said, I think that was about, there's a, a violation rather than a convention, right? 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:33.240 It's not a violation necessarily to say I write generally in single quotes, or I write in double quotes for all my strings. 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:41.120 Or I might sometimes have a single quote or sometimes have a double quote where like you might have a coding convention that says all of our strings are the same. 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.700 They all use single quotes or they all use double quotes. 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:52.960 And I don't, there's no reason for like in the same function to have two kinds of strings unless, unless you're in that situation where like I'm saying it's possible. 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.200 So I don't want to use a single quote. 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:55.260 So I don't want to use a single quote. 00:14:55.260 --> 00:14:57.260 So I don't have to escape the apostrophe. 00:14:57.260 --> 00:14:58.860 So I'll use a double quote for that one. 00:14:58.860 --> 00:14:59.020 Right. 00:14:59.020 --> 00:15:03.300 But other than those like sort of weird cases, you shouldn't mix. 00:15:03.300 --> 00:15:03.780 Right. 00:15:03.780 --> 00:15:07.540 I think that's more what the point of the Ruff formatter is addressing and black as well. 00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:07.880 Yeah. 00:15:08.300 --> 00:15:13.840 Well, rough has a few and a few differences from, from black as well. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:14.440 Yes. 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:20.880 And they, they call out as the formatters intended to emit near identical output when run over black formatted code. 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:21.620 This is interesting. 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:28.660 When run over extensively black formatted code projects like Django and Zulip, it was 99.9% the same. 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:36.500 However, it says somewhere when run over non black formatted code, it might make different decisions than black has made. 00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:37.300 Yeah. 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:40.440 And I kind of like some of the decisions that they're making. 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:40.960 Just. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:41.760 I do too. 00:15:41.760 --> 00:15:43.240 I do actually like them quite a bit. 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.980 So I'm, I'm a fan of some of these things. 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:55.500 It's not, it doesn't have as many features yet as, as black does in terms of like controlling certain things or, you know, but they're, they're working on it. 00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:58.040 I was talking to Charlie just an hour ago by talking. 00:15:58.220 --> 00:16:00.020 Charlie just said, I meant submitting a GitHub issue. 00:16:00.020 --> 00:16:02.660 And it was quickly, we're having a back and forth there. 00:16:02.660 --> 00:16:03.540 So that's awesome. 00:16:03.540 --> 00:16:04.020 Yeah. 00:16:04.020 --> 00:16:05.080 I like, so it talks about. 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:09.500 For instance, the line endings, I think are a cool way to deal with it. 00:16:09.500 --> 00:16:10.240 Yeah. 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:10.740 So. 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:16.640 The line feed versus carriage return line feed backslash end versus backslash R backslash end. 00:16:16.640 --> 00:16:18.720 That's a windows versus non windows. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:19.400 Yeah. 00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:20.040 Challenge. 00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:20.460 Right. 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:25.120 And so I guess if you're on a windows, you don't want it to keep like unraveling that for you. 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:25.800 I suppose. 00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:26.540 Yeah. 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:31.540 Actually, I thought one of the things I thought I read was things about comments at the end 00:16:31.540 --> 00:16:32.040 of the line. 00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:39.460 Black would often put like the comment on a completely, your, your comment might not match up with what 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:41.340 it, what you actually commented against. 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:42.340 Yeah. 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:42.340 Yeah. 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:42.800 Yeah. 00:16:42.800 --> 00:16:44.680 Rough is trying to be a little bit better about that. 00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:45.140 So. 00:16:45.140 --> 00:16:45.500 Yeah. 00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:51.640 The other area where this is supposed to be different intentionally says frequently black 00:16:51.640 --> 00:16:55.400 will suggest this at the same or the different. 00:16:55.400 --> 00:16:56.340 Let's see. 00:16:56.340 --> 00:17:01.540 There's, there's some places where it's specifically different versus black. 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:03.360 It talks about, I don't know. 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.600 I haven't read it. 00:17:04.600 --> 00:17:08.880 I don't want to like mistake quoted here, but it's, it talks about there's a whole bunch 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.680 of sections of the variations and so on. 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:12.180 Yeah. 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:14.580 Anyway, I'm, I'm excited to try it. 00:17:14.580 --> 00:17:18.440 And, and I think it's cool that this is happening in this space. 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:24.120 Indeed, Jeff out there asks, is there also a rough daemon like black has? 00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:27.800 I had no idea about the black daemon and I definitely don't know about the rough daemon. 00:17:27.800 --> 00:17:35.120 But what I use is, I just have the ID integrate, IDE integration for rough. 00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:39.380 So it will automatically be running in the background, right? 00:17:39.380 --> 00:17:41.280 You get that for PyCharm and VS Code. 00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:46.460 I, I imagine it makes sense to have it run and just constantly checking. 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:48.840 So I don't know, not, not sure. 00:17:48.840 --> 00:17:49.240 Right. 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:50.240 This is still an alpha. 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:51.800 So probably not. 00:17:51.800 --> 00:17:55.140 So, and also good to note it's, this isn't a set. 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:58.060 It is kind of a separate tool, but it's part of rough. 00:17:58.060 --> 00:18:01.880 So it's a, if you say like Ruff format, yes, exactly. 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:03.160 So yeah. 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:04.960 Ruff format. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.020 And I actually was thinking, I can't find my little example that I was running earlier, 00:18:10.020 --> 00:18:11.080 but there's a couple of, yeah. 00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:16.500 So you can do things like, so you can say like Ruff format, dash, dash, 00:18:16.560 --> 00:18:19.260 line length, dash, dash respect, .gitignore. 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:24.840 So it'll say if it's ignored and get, don't format it, please. 00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:25.340 Yeah. 00:18:25.340 --> 00:18:28.740 You know, things like packages that are installed in a virtual environment. 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:31.440 Don't go messing with stuff that like, I don't care about. 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:31.920 Right. 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.080 If it's ignored in GitHub, I didn't get, it probably is only going to cause me trouble by messing with it. 00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:39.560 so just leave it alone. 00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:39.880 Right. 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:41.120 It's kind of the way I see it. 00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:43.760 I never considered that. 00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:46.320 Does black change like virtual environments? 00:18:46.320 --> 00:18:48.240 this is a question. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:48.700 I don't know. 00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:48.960 Okay. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.560 Anyway, probably, probably not, but I don't want it to. 00:18:51.560 --> 00:18:52.000 It does. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:52.420 Yeah. 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:52.740 Anyway. 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:53.260 Cool. 00:18:53.260 --> 00:18:55.660 That, that, the rough, rough space format. 00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:56.080 Very cool. 00:18:56.080 --> 00:19:03.060 well, we're kind of going into the, like the inside baseball on this episode, 00:19:03.060 --> 00:19:03.760 but that's all right. 00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:08.300 next up, we've got a suggestion from Will McCoogan. 00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:10.560 thought this might be good. 00:19:10.560 --> 00:19:12.320 A good one to discuss on the show. 00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:13.960 what's wrong with Toml? 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.340 I'm like, I don't think anything's wrong with Toml. 00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:18.240 So let's take a look. 00:19:18.500 --> 00:19:22.240 so there's an article, I forget calm. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.500 So it's hard to find, but Kamal Connor, cool name. 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:27.180 what's wrong with Toml? 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:33.620 And the gist of this really is Toml is, is great for smallish things. 00:19:33.620 --> 00:19:41.220 And even considering pyproject.toml is smallish, but interesting quote from, apparently from 00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:47.220 Martin Vignar, author of PyToml, said Toml is a bad file format. 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:51.340 It looks good at first glance and for really, really trivial things. 00:19:51.340 --> 00:19:52.060 It's probably good. 00:19:52.060 --> 00:19:57.320 But once I started using it and the configuration schema became more complex, I found the syntax 00:19:57.320 --> 00:19:58.940 ugly and hard to read. 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:01.360 Not sure what he was doing with it, but anyway. 00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:06.360 So there, apparently there's some, some funkiness with big things. 00:20:06.360 --> 00:20:08.260 And I'm like, well, what is big things? 00:20:08.260 --> 00:20:09.320 And what are they comparing it to? 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:14.960 One of the comparisons is against a thing called strict YAML, which I didn't know what that 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:15.280 was. 00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:18.560 And strict YAML is YAML compliant. 00:20:18.560 --> 00:20:20.600 It's the YAML that won't let you go out at night. 00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:22.220 Your curvy is like nine 30. 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:24.340 It's, it's really, it's oppressive. 00:20:24.340 --> 00:20:28.980 apparently it's YAML with, some of the features taken away. 00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:33.380 So I'm not, it's not a standard yet, but apparently it's in the process. 00:20:34.040 --> 00:20:35.980 So like, what are they doing with it? 00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:37.260 That Toml is a problem. 00:20:37.260 --> 00:20:43.980 And, it's around strict YAML also is built for, what is it built for? 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.240 readable story tests. 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:48.280 I'm like, what's a readable story test? 00:20:48.280 --> 00:20:48.820 I want to see. 00:20:48.820 --> 00:20:50.200 Here's some examples. 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:55.540 We've got, this is a, strict YAML readable story. 00:20:55.540 --> 00:20:58.500 mappings with defined keys. 00:20:58.660 --> 00:21:03.580 Anyway, this is sort of readable, but there's a lot of keywords in here that, I'm not 00:21:03.580 --> 00:21:04.640 going to say this is readable. 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.400 I don't think this is that great. 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:10.080 Now compared to the, Toml version. 00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:11.620 Yeah, this is weird. 00:21:11.620 --> 00:21:16.580 You've got like these weird brackets with lots of, I don't think this is necessarily a problem. 00:21:16.580 --> 00:21:20.980 My take on it is I wouldn't use either of these for this purpose. 00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:21.340 Exactly. 00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:28.340 Like I would use Python, probably to describe stories, but anyway, I don't want to bash 00:21:28.340 --> 00:21:28.680 on him. 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:34.020 I guess something to think about if, Toml is, if you're using Toml for really large things, 00:21:34.020 --> 00:21:35.220 maybe it's a problem. 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:40.480 I'd be curious to know, well, if, well, if you're listening, what do you think? 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:44.720 Is it, are you using some wacky large Toml files that are becoming a problem? 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:45.560 I don't know. 00:21:45.560 --> 00:21:49.920 So that's just wanted to throw that out there. 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:50.440 Awesome. 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:51.960 Got any extras to throw out there? 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.400 my extras are totally self-serving. 00:21:55.400 --> 00:22:00.160 but, I see the beginning of the episode. 00:22:00.300 --> 00:22:00.540 Yeah. 00:22:00.540 --> 00:22:05.620 So the last, so last, last week I announced, I think that I had a part one of 00:22:05.620 --> 00:22:08.840 the, my test course, all buttoned down and ready. 00:22:08.840 --> 00:22:14.440 And that was a kind of a problem because my video intro video was like, Hey, I'm starting 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.060 this course, but I've already started it. 00:22:16.060 --> 00:22:18.480 So I re what I did is I did a few things. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.500 I redid the video, the intro video to just sort of describe where, where this course fits 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:24.520 in with everything else. 00:22:24.700 --> 00:22:27.440 and so it's like a few minutes to check it out. 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.460 the other thing I did was I had some feedback from people that said, teachable sort of 00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:36.120 easy to use, but some people might not understand. 00:22:36.120 --> 00:22:37.760 Maybe you should do a little intro video. 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:42.840 So I did a, a little intro video for how to use, how to use teachable. 00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:45.060 and it's a few minutes also. 00:22:45.320 --> 00:22:48.960 And one of the things I like about this is I learned some things that I didn't know. 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.980 So you can, my favorite is you can adjust the speed so you can listen to me, at like 00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:56.900 1.25 or 1.5 speed and it'll go faster. 00:22:56.900 --> 00:22:59.100 The other thing is you can add notes. 00:22:59.100 --> 00:23:04.240 You can add like notes for different video places and say, and then when you, when you 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.940 click on it, so I'll even do it without explainer video. 00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:09.280 You can grab a note. 00:23:09.280 --> 00:23:09.900 Hi. 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:14.820 and then later you can go back and click on the note and it takes you back to 00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:15.700 that part of the video. 00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:18.000 So if you want to keep some notes, that's kind of neat. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.360 So that's, that's our early, all my extras is that's going on. 00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:21.840 Yeah. 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:22.840 That's a very useful feature. 00:23:22.840 --> 00:23:23.420 Excellent. 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:24.000 Excellent. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.280 What you got making progress on your course. 00:23:26.280 --> 00:23:27.080 Nice to see. 00:23:27.080 --> 00:23:27.580 Thanks. 00:23:27.580 --> 00:23:30.940 I also have a course announcements. 00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:38.160 So Christopher Trudeau and I teamed up to create a Django version of the HTMX course at 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:38.900 talk Python. 00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:43.480 Now we have HTMX plus Django modern Python web apps hold the JavaScript. 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:49.980 So this is a two hour course that shows Django developers, how to work with HTMX, how to 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:55.700 build up like a pretty, pretty realistic, pretty complicated, but not overly complicated, but 00:23:55.700 --> 00:23:59.500 you know, not toy type of application that they get to build throughout the course. 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:00.580 So check that out. 00:24:00.580 --> 00:24:02.460 It's still on the early bird special. 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:08.540 So if people get to it by the 23rd, September 23rd, got a few more days to 00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:09.320 save 10%. 00:24:09.320 --> 00:24:11.900 If you're thinking about getting it might as well do that now. 00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:14.080 And it has the sister flask course. 00:24:14.080 --> 00:24:15.900 If you don't Django, but you flask. 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:19.800 So those are our two sides of the same coin there. 00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:20.900 And HTMX is just awesome. 00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:21.580 So check that out. 00:24:21.580 --> 00:24:22.360 If people are interested. 00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:23.720 Look, it's looking forward to that. 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:24.160 Yeah. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:24.460 Thanks. 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:32.200 And then if you happen to be coding in Rust, JetBrains just released a new IDE called Rust 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:32.760 Rover. 00:24:32.760 --> 00:24:35.200 A funny name. 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:39.760 I'm not really sure the origin of it, but it's based on the same foundation as PyCharm. 00:24:40.120 --> 00:24:44.360 So if you're already using PyCharm or, you know, something like it, WebStorm, whatever, 00:24:44.360 --> 00:24:48.740 and you have the muscle memory for those hotkeys and basically the way it looks and feels, but 00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.780 you also want to do Rust. 00:24:49.780 --> 00:24:52.000 Rust Rover, Rust Rover, come on over. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:53.480 You know, let's do it. 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:53.980 Nice. 00:24:54.040 --> 00:24:54.760 I haven't tried this out. 00:24:54.760 --> 00:24:55.560 I don't do any Rust. 00:24:55.560 --> 00:24:59.780 So people who do Rust can check it out and let us know what they think. 00:24:59.780 --> 00:25:00.220 Nice. 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:02.660 I use the C++ version also. 00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:04.120 The sea lion? 00:25:04.120 --> 00:25:04.460 Yeah. 00:25:04.460 --> 00:25:06.400 It's sort of a funny name for it. 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:07.600 It is. 00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:08.220 They got good names. 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:15.200 Also, Skylar Costco, who is the sky from submitting the Ruff formatter, says, 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:20.100 It looks like --respect .gitignore is the default behavior in a Ruff formatter. 00:25:20.100 --> 00:25:23.120 You should only need to set a flag, pass this flag. 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.960 If you do want to format .gitignored files via dash dash, no respect. 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:30.440 No respect for the .gitignore. 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:32.320 Got no respect around here. 00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:33.680 Yeah. 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.980 Some Rodney Dangerfield programming right there. 00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:38.740 You dissing the .gitignore. 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:39.260 Come on now. 00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:43.880 New talk by the episode I just released like right before we jumped on here. 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.400 The lightful machine learning apps with Gradio. 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:52.760 If you want to take a ML machine learning model you've created and put it into an interactive UI 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:53.900 on the web that you can share. 00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:54.460 Super easy. 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:55.300 Check this out. 00:25:55.300 --> 00:25:55.820 Open source. 00:25:55.820 --> 00:25:56.400 Very cool. 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:57.760 They even have some hosting options. 00:25:57.760 --> 00:25:58.360 Nice. 00:25:58.540 --> 00:25:59.760 Both free and paid. 00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:00.680 All right. 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:01.980 So that is it. 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.380 Oh, I guess one more piece of follow up. 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:08.020 Since you asked Will McGugan says, are we Tomal? 00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:10.040 Most more hypothetical issues. 00:26:10.040 --> 00:26:13.240 I think there were some good points, but haven't faced them yet. 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:13.940 Okay. 00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:14.400 Thanks, Will. 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:15.580 I figured you were listening. 00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:16.440 Yeah. 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:18.720 Brian, are you willing to face a joke? 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:21.580 Well, yeah, I think. 00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:21.960 Yeah. 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:22.200 Okay. 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:23.920 So sometimes, sometimes. 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:24.540 I'm worried now. 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:31.520 Well, I'm sure in school you probably studied like the five stages of grief or something like 00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:31.680 that. 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:31.980 Okay. 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:32.180 Yeah. 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:33.840 You know, that's not something you really want. 00:26:33.840 --> 00:26:34.080 Why? 00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:35.000 Well, there's not open the image. 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:35.660 I can't do it. 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:38.040 Anyway, maybe it's, it's just best. 00:26:38.040 --> 00:26:38.580 No, it's not. 00:26:38.580 --> 00:26:40.640 But very, I got to try to read very small here. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:40.940 Hold on. 00:26:41.260 --> 00:26:44.040 So this is the five stages of debugging. 00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:44.900 Okay. 00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:46.840 Let me find a way to make this bigger. 00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:47.260 So I agree. 00:26:47.260 --> 00:26:48.040 There we go. 00:26:48.040 --> 00:26:49.380 So the five stages. 00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:49.920 Okay. 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.720 Number one, denial. 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:57.100 This stage is often characterized by phrases such as what? 00:26:57.100 --> 00:26:58.000 That's impossible. 00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.840 Or I know this is right. 00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:04.720 And a strong sign of denial is recompiling without changing any code. 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:05.520 Just in case. 00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:06.680 Funny. 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:07.620 All right. 00:27:07.620 --> 00:27:10.060 Stage two, bargaining and self-blame. 00:27:10.360 --> 00:27:14.460 Several programming errors are uncovered and the programmer feels stupid and guilty of 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:15.140 having made them. 00:27:15.140 --> 00:27:16.180 Bargaining is common. 00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:18.440 If I fix this, will you please compile? 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:20.480 Also, I have only 14 errors to go. 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:21.740 Stage three is anger. 00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:24.740 Cryptic error messages send the programmer into rage. 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:32.260 This stage is accompanied by hours long diatribes about the limitations of language directed 00:27:32.260 --> 00:27:35.300 to whomever will listen. 00:27:35.300 --> 00:27:37.480 Stage four, it's getting serious depression. 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.180 Following the outburst, the programmer becomes aware. 00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:43.120 The hours have gone by unproductively. 00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:45.800 And there's still no solution in sight. 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:47.620 The programmer becomes a listless. 00:27:47.620 --> 00:27:50.760 The posture often deteriorates. 00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:58.980 And you can see all the graphics are screaming and banging on the computer or staring at the sky. 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:00.800 The depression one is just sunk in the chair. 00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:04.020 And acceptance, the wheelchair is like the wheelie chair. 00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:05.160 It's turned around and it's gone. 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:06.480 There's no one at the computer anymore. 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:07.060 Yeah. 00:28:07.060 --> 00:28:08.560 The final stage is acceptance. 00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:12.960 The programmer finally accepts the situation, declares the bug a feature, and goes to play some Quake. 00:28:13.760 --> 00:28:14.060 Yeah. 00:28:14.060 --> 00:28:16.900 So I just, yeah. 00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:19.300 There's tons of stages missing. 00:28:19.300 --> 00:28:20.480 Yes, this is funny. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:21.700 I know it's supposed to be a joke. 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:23.760 But, like, get up. 00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.060 Go talk to somebody else. 00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:27.360 Don't do, like, leave the computer. 00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:32.180 That should be one of the first things you do is go, like, take a shower or take a nap or something like that and come back. 00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:32.880 Yeah. 00:28:32.980 --> 00:28:33.800 That's very productive. 00:28:33.800 --> 00:28:36.920 I also think somewhere in there, there should be searching Stack Overflow. 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:37.460 Yeah. 00:28:37.460 --> 00:28:41.480 And there should be another stage where you go to ChatGPT and see if it can help you. 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:42.020 Yeah. 00:28:42.020 --> 00:28:44.560 Or duck, what, rubber ducking? 00:28:44.560 --> 00:28:45.720 Yeah, exactly. 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:52.220 So I never really could get into the rubber duck completely of explaining the problem to a rubber duck or some inanimate object. 00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:58.860 But explaining it to a non-technical person, I'll, like, try to explain the problem to, like, one of my kids or something. 00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:04.200 And I'm often, while I'm explaining it, I'm like, wait, I think the problem's there. 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:05.060 Anyway. 00:29:05.060 --> 00:29:06.180 So, yeah. 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:06.600 That's funny. 00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:09.740 I find time away often is the most important thing. 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:09.960 Yeah. 00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:11.940 Go record a podcast or something. 00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:12.840 Exactly. 00:29:12.840 --> 00:29:14.100 Or go for a walk. 00:29:14.100 --> 00:29:16.000 Go for a motorcycle ride, bicycle ride. 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.200 Like, just get away from the computer for a little bit. 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:18.380 Yep. 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:18.760 Yeah. 00:29:18.760 --> 00:29:19.240 Cool. 00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:21.980 Well, speaking of getting away from the computer. 00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:23.440 Exactly. 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:24.460 Let's get away from this podcast. 00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:25.400 Thank you, everyone. 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:25.840 Thank you. 00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:26.340 Bye.