WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:04.380 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:04.760 --> 00:00:08.560 This is episode 359, recorded November 2nd. 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:09.860 And I am Brian Okken. 00:00:10.120 --> 00:00:10.980 And I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:13.900 This episode is sponsored by Scout APM. 00:00:14.280 --> 00:00:16.660 Listen to more about them a little later in the show. 00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:22.900 Also, you can connect with us, Michael, Brian, and Python, Python Bytes. 00:00:23.060 --> 00:00:28.540 So we're at mkennedy, @brianokken, and at Python Bytes, all on fostadon.org. 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:37.260 And if you're listening in just your earbuds, you can join us live at pythonbytes.fm/live, and you can be part of the audience. 00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:39.280 So, Michael, what do you got for us? 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:46.780 Well, I have a quick follow-up to your Fosstodon Mastodon statement real quick before we dive into the first item, which is very exciting. 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:48.920 I know a lot of people will be excited to hear about it. 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:57.780 But fosstodon.org, the instance of Mastodon that many of us Python people are on, has gone invite only. 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.140 Of course, you don't need to be on Fossedon to participate in talking with us or interact. 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:04.559 That's the whole point of Mastodon. 00:01:05.019 --> 00:01:09.840 However, a couple of people have said, hey, I'd really like to be on Fossedon and around 00:01:09.910 --> 00:01:11.700 you guys in that community, but it's invite only. 00:01:12.080 --> 00:01:18.660 I have a short-lived invite code for the listeners who promptly listen to our show if they want 00:01:18.660 --> 00:01:19.660 to join that later. 00:01:19.880 --> 00:01:20.300 Cool. 00:01:20.660 --> 00:01:21.820 Yeah, because it's invite only now. 00:01:22.100 --> 00:01:22.380 Okay. 00:01:22.740 --> 00:01:22.920 All right. 00:01:23.100 --> 00:01:23.680 On to the first item. 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:24.280 PyCon. 00:01:25.020 --> 00:01:26.280 We all love PyCon, right? 00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:26.700 Yeah. 00:01:26.820 --> 00:01:32.080 And this is one of the things I look forward to most in the year in terms of events. 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:33.060 More on that in a minute. 00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:37.980 But this is going to be, it's time for it to be in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 00:01:38.500 --> 00:01:43.000 So you can see there's a little airplane with a banner flying by on the website that's saying 00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:43.580 Pittsburgh. 00:01:44.020 --> 00:01:46.060 So, and there's a snake on a building. 00:01:46.540 --> 00:01:48.700 Only once, it's not really the Python snake though. 00:01:48.800 --> 00:01:51.360 Its eye is like more eardroppy, not circular. 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.660 Anyway, it's, there's a snake there by the community for the community. 00:01:55.100 --> 00:01:55.760 All excellent. 00:01:56.240 --> 00:01:57.820 and it's going to be a little later this year. 00:01:57.820 --> 00:01:58.980 I think it was April last year. 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.040 It's going to be May 15th to 23rd 00:02:01.310 --> 00:02:03.620 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Tutorials. 00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:05.000 What was really nice this year 00:02:05.100 --> 00:02:08.259 is they actually have the subschedule time 00:02:08.570 --> 00:02:09.800 like prominently listed. 00:02:09.890 --> 00:02:11.600 I think the last time it was like, 00:02:11.630 --> 00:02:13.160 if you dug in, you could find 00:02:13.350 --> 00:02:16.000 what days the actual main conference was, 00:02:16.130 --> 00:02:17.540 but I'm not really sure 00:02:17.810 --> 00:02:19.220 if I want to do the sprints when are they, 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:21.620 you know, like it just had the whole broad range. 00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:24.960 So this is like the main conference is May 17 to 19, 00:02:25.700 --> 00:02:28.600 Two days before that are tutorials and so on. 00:02:28.850 --> 00:02:28.960 Okay. 00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:35.260 So it was in a Salt Lake City in the last two years, previous prior to that, it was in Cleveland, Ohio. 00:02:35.920 --> 00:02:39.360 I do have a minor beef with the location here, like nothing against Pittsburgh. 00:02:39.640 --> 00:02:40.320 Pittsburgh is awesome. 00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:46.140 You know, I would love to go to Pittsburgh and meet people, but the goal of kind of moving PyCon around. 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:53.080 So that different people, at least within the, within North America, have a chance to have PyCon sometimes near them. 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:55.580 Seems like, well, it spent two years in Cleveland. 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.540 Pittsburgh is only a two-hour drive from Cleveland. 00:03:00.140 --> 00:03:03.780 So it feels like it's kind of back in the same place again for now four years. 00:03:03.880 --> 00:03:06.960 And I would love to see it move more locations, right? 00:03:07.160 --> 00:03:11.520 Like maybe it could be in Mississippi or in somewhere like really, you know, 00:03:11.880 --> 00:03:17.600 different than a sort of short upper Midwest, you know, 00:03:17.820 --> 00:03:19.240 just outside of the East Coast there. 00:03:19.700 --> 00:03:23.440 On the other hand, East Coast, that's kind of the densest part of the U.S. 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:25.740 So it does give a lot of people a chance to go to it. 00:03:25.900 --> 00:03:27.560 Are you calling people on the East Coast dense? 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:29.480 Yes. 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:31.560 They like to live in dense places. 00:03:31.690 --> 00:03:31.800 Okay. 00:03:32.300 --> 00:03:40.200 There's just, if you look at like light maps of the U.S. or just population maps, like there's way more people on the Eastern half than the Western half. 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:41.700 And that's how we like it. 00:03:41.850 --> 00:03:42.780 All of us in Oregon. 00:03:43.100 --> 00:03:44.280 Don't, don't, don't move to Oregon. 00:03:44.420 --> 00:03:45.020 It's horrible here. 00:03:45.070 --> 00:03:45.200 Yeah. 00:03:45.320 --> 00:03:45.820 It's horrible. 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:46.440 It's rain. 00:03:46.640 --> 00:03:48.100 It's really cold and rainy. 00:03:48.190 --> 00:03:49.860 I haven't seen the sun for six years, Brian. 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:51.480 So people shouldn't come here. 00:03:51.580 --> 00:03:51.800 Terrible. 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:52.300 Yeah. 00:03:52.640 --> 00:03:52.740 Okay. 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:55.540 But the super excited, the call for proposals is open. 00:03:55.620 --> 00:04:00.320 There's like a bunch of instructions under this little permanent, collapse menu, 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:04.820 but you can go to speaking and it says, proposing a talk, proposing a tutorial, a Sharla posters, 00:04:05.130 --> 00:04:05.440 et cetera. 00:04:05.940 --> 00:04:06.620 All this is good. 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:12.580 One other thing I did want to highlight, and this, this makes me honestly really disappointed. 00:04:12.650 --> 00:04:14.300 So I hope people don't take this the wrong way. 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:15.900 Health and safety guidelines. 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:16.680 Okay. 00:04:16.980 --> 00:04:18.180 So we're nice people. 00:04:18.640 --> 00:04:22.079 It says, but us nice people are sick and diseased. 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:31.600 many of us uh and masks are going to be 100 required and 100 enforced and i don't know you 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:38.580 and i we were both there last year brian i kind of felt like you know from the cdc guidelines and 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:45.380 from just the general society like kind of people have vaccines at least as options um i've had i 00:04:45.380 --> 00:04:52.320 just talked two weeks ago last week about how i got my fifth covid vaccine and i had kind of a 00:04:52.340 --> 00:04:58.740 health crisis is kind of over and i feel like this is not ideal i i would like to see it just be i 00:04:58.900 --> 00:05:06.700 i've seen other conferences like i think uh um the european ones often do whatever the local the 00:05:06.840 --> 00:05:13.560 local rules are um and i think that's what it ought to be if if the local rules are open then 00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:20.360 i mean i i guess my thoughts are if people are really concerned about it and i i legitimately 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:25.440 understand if you're caring for somebody that's uh immunocompromised or if you are you're going to 00:05:25.440 --> 00:05:32.280 be concerned but your entire route to this place um like the airplane and everything there's going 00:05:32.280 --> 00:05:39.320 to be full a bunch of people not wearing masks and so uh i think max mass optional seems to make 00:05:39.460 --> 00:05:45.840 sense to me but i i think it yeah i agree with you 100 and i think this so let me just take a step 00:05:45.760 --> 00:05:50.220 back last year, I feel like the experience of PyCon was quite degraded. 00:05:50.510 --> 00:05:51.260 I had a great time. 00:05:51.330 --> 00:05:54.720 I really appreciated the spending the time with people I got to and meeting 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:58.480 the people that I got to, but the ability to meet people, people and have 00:05:58.760 --> 00:06:00.820 conversations on like loud expo floor halls. 00:06:00.980 --> 00:06:06.200 It's hard to hear them because they were talking like this, you know? 00:06:07.420 --> 00:06:07.640 Okay. 00:06:07.900 --> 00:06:10.340 And so you want to interview people there? 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:12.320 Like people are like, why are you taking your mask off? 00:06:12.330 --> 00:06:14.320 Like, well, I can't do a podcast with a mask on. 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:15.760 it's not going to come out right. 00:06:15.840 --> 00:06:21.860 And so for me, 80% of the reason I go to PyCon is to meet people, to network, to record podcasts. 00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:28.780 I did like the seven different company series of, the startup row and the awesome 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.400 episode with Sebastian Ramirez and Samuel Colvin and, and those types of things. 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:34.280 Like, that's why I go. 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:37.360 And I feel like the mass stuff takes away a lot of it. 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:38.720 I'm a hundred percent supportive. 00:06:38.940 --> 00:06:41.040 If people want to wear a mask, it doesn't bother me. 00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:51.860 I think it would even be totally good to say there's a section of the conference where if you feel uncomfortable and you want to get away from all those non-mask people, like you can go over there. 00:06:52.210 --> 00:06:54.180 But I think, I know there's a bunch of people. 00:06:54.640 --> 00:06:59.620 I know there are people who are very still freaked out about COVID, very freaked out about traveling. 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:05.000 But I think for every one of them, there's 10 people that are like, we can't live this way for the rest of our lives. 00:07:05.210 --> 00:07:06.260 We just got to get back to it. 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:13.680 So the reason I care more than it just bothers me personally is I think this is not going 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:17.900 to be healthy for Python, the PSF in the long term. 00:07:18.200 --> 00:07:19.560 I think it's going to cut. 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.200 A lot of people I spoke to are like, I don't want to last year. 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:24.340 They're like, I'm not sure if I'm going next year. 00:07:24.580 --> 00:07:26.440 If it's like this again, this is not great. 00:07:26.780 --> 00:07:28.160 The attendance, I looked. 00:07:28.200 --> 00:07:29.200 Do I have it pulled up here? 00:07:29.740 --> 00:07:29.840 No. 00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:33.540 But you can look on Wikipedia and I linked to it in the show notes. 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:41.880 The prior years, it was like 3000 something, you know, 3,200 year over year over year was the attendance. 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:44.440 And it was 2000 last year. 00:07:44.780 --> 00:07:44.900 Right. 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:45.300 Yeah. 00:07:45.520 --> 00:07:52.400 And I think this is going to discourage more people from coming more than it will encourage the people who are really nervous about coming. 00:07:52.860 --> 00:08:02.020 And if it, you know, PyCon is the vast majority of income and revenue for the PSF, like not a little bit, almost all of it. 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:08.040 And so when policies affect who's going, who's not that also, yeah, you found it right there. 00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:13.200 I think people have to really consider like, okay, is there some sort of middle ground? 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:14.860 So I don't know the way it is right now. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:19.940 I'm probably not going to PyCon, which makes me a little bummed out, but it was just, I 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:26.400 was so wiped out and worn out trying to have all those conversations, loud spaces through 00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:27.220 masks, et cetera. 00:08:27.490 --> 00:08:28.120 So we'll see. 00:08:28.500 --> 00:08:34.039 I'm not a hundred percent sure, but if you look at the, you look at the final thing here, 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:35.620 it says there will be no rolling back. 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:42.460 This is the most lenient version of the health and safety standards we're going to have. 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:46.940 The only possibility is that we will have more restrictions potentially by the time 00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:47.860 the conference comes up. 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.040 And for me, I don't know, it's makes me sad. 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:52.840 I'm not, I'm not anti-mask. 00:08:53.280 --> 00:08:55.200 I'm not anti-vax as I already pointed out. 00:08:55.540 --> 00:09:00.500 I wore a mask happily when there was an emergency, but you know, COVID is not going away. 00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:05.420 Like is PyCon for the rest of our lives going to be this restrictive? 00:09:06.040 --> 00:09:09.660 Seems not like the best path, but I'm not in charge and no one asked me, Brian. 00:09:12.830 --> 00:09:14.820 Well, so anyway, this is my thoughts. 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:16.160 I'm excited that PyCon's here. 00:09:16.160 --> 00:09:18.700 I hope people who want to go submit their talks. 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:25.300 There's an online option, but there's a very small chance with this level of 00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:29.100 you must wear a mask you must stay away from people that it's going to be valuable for me to go 00:09:29.430 --> 00:09:35.180 and i'm probably not going to okay i haven't decided myself yet so yeah all right well well 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:40.120 i'm sure this will come back it's in uh eight months from now seven months from now okay um 00:09:40.540 --> 00:09:46.220 for people wanting to to submit a talk uh the again the call for proposals is open and it is open 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:53.300 until the uh end of the day anywhere so um on december 18th so you got from now or just december 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:58.820 18 but don't wait until the 17th submit early because uh these poor people that are reviewing 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:05.180 uh reviewing all of the proposals um i think it's good to get feedback early and start getting things 00:10:05.300 --> 00:10:11.280 in early so yeah i think they even they have traditionally had like submission meant as a 00:10:11.280 --> 00:10:14.180 mentor the right word but people to help you if you were doing your first time submission 00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:18.980 to work with you i don't know i didn't see that this time but i haven't dug into all the details so 00:10:19.040 --> 00:10:26.480 okay yeah yep awesome over you well uh we covered uh the Ruff formatter in september i believe 00:10:27.100 --> 00:10:32.460 and it's only been a month later a month and a half um but um the Ruff formatter is now 00:10:33.020 --> 00:10:39.160 we we covered it when it was alpha it was like you can play with it um and now uh it is um i'll 00:10:39.380 --> 00:10:47.520 scroll to the bottom they say um it is uh production ready so um the formatter is in a 00:10:47.380 --> 00:10:52.020 is still beta release but they consider it production ready and i've played with it enough 00:10:52.180 --> 00:10:58.720 it's pretty awesome so um what are some of the highlights uh it is so the black form or black 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:05.360 formatter the Ruff formatter is mostly like black but faster so it's how much faster it's like 30 00:11:05.580 --> 00:11:11.920 times faster um and then there's other uh and black's already pretty darn fast there's like yapf 00:11:11.940 --> 00:11:15.540 which I never use, but apparently it's 100 times faster than YAPF. 00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:18.720 And very compatible. 00:11:19.400 --> 00:11:22.560 It's very compatible with black, but also they list some of the differences. 00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:24.620 So we've got was it? 00:11:24.800 --> 00:11:26.260 Oh, this is a different different one. 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:27.780 So there's a link. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.120 It's on this document also of of what is different. 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:34.880 So there's differences from black and in it. 00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:40.000 So it's very thoughtful to go through and none of these I would disagree with. 00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:44.140 So some reasonable changes from black, 00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:48.280 but just having a formatter for your entire team is what is really important, I think. 00:11:48.940 --> 00:11:51.040 So I also really like that recently 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:53.800 rough is supported. 00:11:54.180 --> 00:11:56.860 So this is not part of the formatter, but that rough is built, 00:11:57.100 --> 00:12:02.640 brought in a lot more flake eight support and and and flake eight extensions. 00:12:03.140 --> 00:12:06.440 And then also I sort and PI upgrade are part of rough now also. 00:12:06.880 --> 00:12:09.680 But the Ruff format is just kind of like black, but faster. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:10.640 So why not? 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.540 Anyway, there's some cool stuff about it. 00:12:14.660 --> 00:12:16.100 It's a little more configurable. 00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:18.820 There's a couple extra configurations you can do. 00:12:19.340 --> 00:12:22.020 I think that you covered that not too long ago. 00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:26.680 Yeah, I covered just the string side of things, which is nice. 00:12:26.880 --> 00:12:30.120 But yeah, it's not massively configurable, 00:12:30.300 --> 00:12:35.180 but there's a few areas that people seem to really care about changing or not changing. 00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:38.960 I also, since it's been widely adopted, 00:12:39.130 --> 00:12:43.940 we also have extensions for VS Code and PyCharm 00:12:44.210 --> 00:12:46.280 that you can, and IntelliJ PyCharm, 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:50.100 that you can add on so that you can have the formatting done 00:12:50.130 --> 00:12:51.680 just right in your editor, which is great. 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:54.700 Yeah, and you can do things like when you, 00:12:54.810 --> 00:12:56.200 I think in the PyCharm one, 00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:58.120 if you just hit the reformat code, 00:12:58.420 --> 00:12:59.900 I think it might even use Ruff format. 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:00.980 I'm not entirely sure, 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:04.060 but I think you can make Ruff format be the format, 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:05.700 my code for me. 00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:06.260 Yeah. 00:13:06.640 --> 00:13:08.120 So I'm pretty excited about this. 00:13:09.060 --> 00:13:15.500 I wasn't going to roll it out to the team when it is in alpha, but if they say it's good, 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:16.940 I'm good with it. 00:13:17.640 --> 00:13:20.280 I trust Charlie and team. 00:13:20.580 --> 00:13:23.280 Charlie and team now, so it's pretty exciting. 00:13:24.040 --> 00:13:31.640 Also, in the article we're linking to, he talks about why they wanted to do a formatter, 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:33.980 but also it's kind of cool. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:39.580 talks about the astral tools tool chain so the company is called astral now and they talk about 00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:46.980 um how this is the first non-linting uh you know application that they've done so they are that 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:54.120 they were planning on branching out and doing more things around python tool chains uh but um faster 00:13:54.260 --> 00:14:00.280 with building it with the rest so um this is this is the first so i i'm excited to see where they go 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:06.700 with this. So excellent. Yeah. So, you know, they go on and on about how much faster it is. 00:14:07.300 --> 00:14:13.740 And that's, it's, it's interesting to me because the faster aspect is kind of a, it's like a 00:14:14.140 --> 00:14:20.360 sideshow amazing, but not necessarily why I would pick it. I know if you had 5 million lines of 00:14:20.450 --> 00:14:27.999 Python, yeah, it super, super matters, but most people don't, right? Like running across 350 00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:33.060 Python files that make up talk by then training, for example, website and APIs and stuff. 00:14:33.380 --> 00:14:36.280 And it literally is instant, which is like mind boggling. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.820 You say format this, that applies all these rules, all these changes. 00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:44.940 And it's just like done 27 files changed 324 not changed or whatever it says. 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:46.520 So it's awesome that it's fast. 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:48.800 I mean, if it were too slow, I would maybe not use it. 00:14:49.020 --> 00:14:50.960 But to me, it's the configurability, right? 00:14:51.160 --> 00:14:56.020 Like you can set the line length, you can set the string style if it really matters to you. 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:26.320 Yeah, I think like for me, that's why I'm so excited about the Ruff formatter more than the actual speed, because I have a 32 inch 4K monitor. Do I want like a little thin column of code? Because, you know, I want 80 columns. No, like I've got it set to 120. And it still is only two thirds of the screen on a large font. You know, it's, it just makes me more productive. Right. And I think I last time I talked about this, I talked about how using the single quote is, you know, 00:15:26.400 --> 00:15:31.480 significantly fewer characters potentially when you're you're typing and if you have rsi like you 00:15:31.530 --> 00:15:37.600 always think about like keystrokes and all that kind of stuff so yeah so for me that's that's 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:43.180 what counts yeah i uh for the string side i haven't talked about this for a while but there are 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:47.760 there are some applications where you're using a lot of double quotes and you cannot use single 00:15:48.020 --> 00:15:53.019 quotes in in the thing that you're using in the string that you're passing so um if you're using 00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:54.660 a lot of double quotes and stuff. 00:15:54.790 --> 00:15:56.360 And I have a, so I have an application 00:15:56.630 --> 00:15:59.380 where the API itself uses a lot of, 00:15:59.990 --> 00:16:02.000 a lot of, we have to pass in double quotes 00:16:02.150 --> 00:16:03.240 into the API. 00:16:03.610 --> 00:16:06.420 So all of the strings that we're past setting up 00:16:06.760 --> 00:16:08.880 is single quoting makes way more sense. 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:10.020 So yeah. 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:11.760 And I also double checked one of the, 00:16:12.140 --> 00:16:13.720 one of the reasons I use double quotes 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:15.380 is if I'm going to say, 00:16:15.780 --> 00:16:18.260 and it's the way it should be in your code 00:16:18.290 --> 00:16:19.900 where you need an apostrophe, right? 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:21.140 Or possessiveness or whatever. 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:26.200 So then you could have a single quote, but then backslash escape the single quote. 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:28.580 But if you put double quotes, there's no need to escape it. 00:16:28.580 --> 00:16:34.820 And I check that if that, if it would go from double quotes and a back to a quote over to 00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:38.120 needing the escaped backslash rough, won't change it. 00:16:38.300 --> 00:16:40.340 So it'll be single quote, single quote, double quotes. 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.100 It's fun. 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:42.700 Double quote and keep going. 00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:44.740 I think that black does the same thing. 00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:48.120 I don't think that I'll have to check, but I don't think black will change it if there's 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:48.780 an embedded one. 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.660 So yeah. 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:50.280 Yeah. 00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:50.620 I'm not sure. 00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:51.400 I wasn't necessarily. 00:16:51.540 --> 00:16:52.920 I don't know at all whether it will, 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:54.860 but just thinking like if you say, 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:55.860 please use single quotes, 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:58.600 it's not like it starts putting escapes everywhere. 00:16:58.780 --> 00:16:58.880 - Yeah. 00:17:00.300 --> 00:17:01.420 - Whereas you can't do that in black. 00:17:02.520 --> 00:17:05.540 Marco out there also points out that Ruff has a plugin 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:07.699 to help upgrade from NumPy one to two, 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:08.819 which is pretty awesome. 00:17:09.150 --> 00:17:09.920 Okay, didn't know that. 00:17:10.020 --> 00:17:10.360 - Oh yeah. 00:17:10.560 --> 00:17:10.839 - That's cool. 00:17:11.189 --> 00:17:11.880 - Yeah, that's really cool. 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:13.560 - That's pretty great actually. 00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:14.600 So cool. 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:15.100 - Sure is. 00:17:15.470 --> 00:17:16.640 All right, well, what's next, Brian? 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:18.760 - Well, we'd like to thank our sponsor. 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.000 So this episode is brought to you by Scout APM. 00:17:22.280 --> 00:17:26.900 Are you tired of spending hours trying to find the root cause of issues impacting performance? 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.340 Then you owe it to yourself to check out our sponsor this week, Scout APM. 00:17:31.600 --> 00:17:39.620 Scout APM is a leading application performance monitoring tool that helps you identify and solve performance abnormalities faster and easier. 00:17:40.300 --> 00:17:53.340 Scout APM ties bottlenecks such as memory leaks, slow database queries, background jobs, the dreaded N plus one queries problem common with ORMs and more directly to source code so that you can spend less time debugging and more time building. 00:17:53.780 --> 00:18:07.000 You'll love Scout because it's built for developers by developers. 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Seriously, you could pause this episode, set up Scout and be back at it without missing a beat. 00:18:07.340 --> 00:18:10.120 And the best part, Scout's pricing is affordable and straightforward. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.440 Only pay for the data you use. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:15.340 No hidden overage fees or per seat pricing. 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:18.900 Start your free trial and get instant insights today. 00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:21.760 Visit pythonbytes.fm/scout. 00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:25.040 Please use our link because that truly supports the show. 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.100 Thank you to Scout APM for supporting Python Bytes. 00:18:28.340 --> 00:18:28.880 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:29.760 Thank you, Scout. 00:18:30.260 --> 00:18:35.360 And being able to look at your code and see like, okay, here's, these are the parts of 00:18:35.320 --> 00:18:40.440 my API or wherever else you're running that are slow or fast and it's in the data layer right now, 00:18:40.520 --> 00:18:47.180 like awesome stuff. So very, very cool service. Now, a couple of bits of feedback from Kim here. 00:18:47.580 --> 00:18:52.540 One is having been on the talk reviewing side several times of smaller regional conferences, 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:58.940 picons, indeed, please submit your stuff as early as possible. It makes it better for the reviewers 00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:04.739 as well as you can get feedback sooner. And confirmation black will leave strings alone 00:19:04.760 --> 00:19:08.500 that have one type of quote inside of the other, which is cool as it should. 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:08.880 Yeah. 00:19:09.260 --> 00:19:09.560 Thanks, Kim. 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:10.200 All right. 00:19:11.020 --> 00:19:12.400 What do we got for the next one? 00:19:12.820 --> 00:19:14.400 This is so big, Brian. 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:15.480 Is it really big? 00:19:16.340 --> 00:19:17.360 It's really big. 00:19:17.390 --> 00:19:23.280 This is what I'm, the title I put, nowhere is it written, but in our show notes, the 00:19:23.530 --> 00:19:30.719 title of the section will be gil minus minus semicolon because it's CPython and Python 00:19:30.740 --> 00:19:37.100 has the GIL but the python steering council has now formally accepted the removal of the GIL in 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.600 python oh cool that is massive right well i thought it was i guess it is massive but i thought it was 00:19:42.780 --> 00:19:47.440 already decided but was it oh it was kind of like tentative that maybe or something i don't know 00:19:47.780 --> 00:19:51.640 there was i think pretty i think there was some pretty serious opposition to doing it because 00:19:52.260 --> 00:19:58.679 it has massive effects on all the c extensions which you know why did we have this whole two 00:19:58.580 --> 00:19:59.260 two to three drama. 00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:04.300 We had it because a bunch of the libraries that people use, right? 00:20:04.300 --> 00:20:09.180 When you say Python, you might mean the language or you might mean plus the 400, 500,000 other 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:14.540 libraries you can use the ecosystem and the ecosystem would say, well, this thing that 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.960 my library depends on doesn't support Python three. 00:20:18.120 --> 00:20:19.540 So I have to stay on Python two. 00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:21.400 And that went on insanely long. 00:20:21.600 --> 00:20:28.540 The same similar type of deal would be here on anything that has like a C layer that has 00:20:28.540 --> 00:20:33.880 form of concern of concurrency or being used in a library that might now use it concurrently when 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:39.380 it wasn't designed for it. So it's, it is pretty significant knock on effects. Yeah. Okay. So this 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:46.740 is PEP 703. It has officially been accepted, sort of, sort of. In short, this comes from, 00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:53.280 comes from Hugo on Mastodon. So again, follows on Mastodon. That's where a lot of the action is, 00:20:53.580 --> 00:21:06.580 But quotes the discussion over on discuss.python.org says, in short, the steering council accepts PEP 703, but with clear provisio that the rollout will be gradual and break as little as possible. 00:21:06.860 --> 00:21:15.320 And that we can roll back any change that turns out to be too disruptive, which includes potentially 100% rollback of PEP 703. 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:23.220 So 100% rejection and reversal, if necessary, however unlikely or desirable, undesirable we expect that to be. 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:24.140 Okay. 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:24.680 Okay. 00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:28.900 So there's a couple of things to note, like go over to the discuss here. 00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:31.320 I had already pulled up, didn't I go to this guy? 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:32.440 Let's go to the PEP. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.100 Now this is by Sam gross. 00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:36.540 And I've talked several times about how excellent. 00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:40.360 I think some of the work that he's been doing, because it's not just the Gil stuff, but 00:21:40.360 --> 00:21:46.440 a lot of the kind of Cinder and speed stuff has been inspired by, Sam gross and the 00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:47.060 folks over there. 00:21:47.620 --> 00:21:50.620 So it says CPython's global interpreter lock. 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:55.620 the gil prevents multiple threads from executing python code at the same time you can have all the 00:21:55.660 --> 00:22:03.180 threads you like in python only one of them will execute a python um instruction instruction code 00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:09.500 like what you get out from when you say disassemble thing right like load adder or add to list that 00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:17.300 kind of thing um so this PEP to be very clear this is a very um small subset that only affects people 00:22:17.260 --> 00:22:24.380 that ask it to affect them this it proposes that adding a build not runtime but a compilation for 00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:31.040 the cpython runtime that will let python code run without the global interpreter lock and the 00:22:31.620 --> 00:22:37.760 necessary changes to make this possible right so when you compile it if you pass --disable 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:43.300 gill then you'll get a special output of python that doesn't have the GIL that's pretty wild isn't 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:50.880 Yeah, I'm hoping that we'll like mere humans that don't want to recompile it can get a distro somewhere with it. 00:22:51.060 --> 00:22:58.020 Yeah, I'm sure there'll be a like click here to alternative downloads, get the concurrent Python or something like that. 00:22:58.250 --> 00:22:58.400 Right. 00:22:58.550 --> 00:23:04.080 But the fact that it's not a not even a runtime flag, but a compile time flag is pretty wild. 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:05.320 So let's see. 00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:07.960 There's a couple of things worth covering here. 00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:10.820 It's a really long, it's a really long path. 00:23:10.820 --> 00:23:11.380 So let's see. 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:14.160 So the GIL effects Python library usability. 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.720 And this is one of the things that's pretty interesting. 00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:20.780 It says, look, there's a lot of libraries like they, they just go on and on about machine 00:23:21.060 --> 00:23:24.400 learning libraries and the concurrency machine learning libraries need. 00:23:24.760 --> 00:23:29.040 Get the strong sense that Sam Gill and people he's working with do stuff with machine learning 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:30.080 libraries of Python. 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.700 And that's their main motivation here, but obviously it has broader implications. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:40.720 But the example here is PyTorch exposes a multi-processing based API called DataLower 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:42.840 for building data input pipelines. 00:23:43.320 --> 00:23:47.000 It uses fork on Linux because it's better, et cetera, et cetera. 00:23:47.020 --> 00:23:50.200 And basically, if you're going to do the weird tricks 00:23:50.300 --> 00:23:52.240 you got to do underneath the covers in Python 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.740 to make the async stuff truly parallel, 00:23:56.320 --> 00:23:58.460 as in I have 10 cores on my machine, 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.140 I want to use them all with threads or something like that. 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.540 However, the top-level API that you interact with 00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:07.420 is kind of janky. 00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:09.840 It has to take into account certain things 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:13.740 like objects can't be shared across multi-processing processes, right? 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:15.740 If it was threads, they could be, but they're not. 00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:17.340 So they can't be, et cetera. 00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:23.780 It says accessing GPUs within a data loader or worker quickly leads out of memory errors 00:24:24.090 --> 00:24:28.620 because of context, like unlike threads within a process and all these different things, right? 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:33.220 So basically one of the motivations is allow people building libraries to build cleaner, 00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:38.500 more self-contained, i.e. like sharing objects within a process better, right? 00:24:38.560 --> 00:24:40.600 Not just I want better performance, which is obvious. 00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:42.760 More stuff about this. 00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:44.140 So yeah, you can look through it. 00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:46.240 Like I said, it's quite the deal. 00:24:46.250 --> 00:24:47.840 But one of the things that's interesting, 00:24:48.590 --> 00:24:52.220 as I touched on, a lot of the things in Cinder actually make sense here. 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:57.700 So this immortalization stuff about objects that have to have reference counting. 00:24:58.180 --> 00:25:00.620 Because remember, the reference counting is what the GIL is about. 00:25:00.820 --> 00:25:03.520 The GIL is all about memory, not concurrency. 00:25:03.620 --> 00:25:04.800 It doesn't care about concurrency. 00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:08.500 It just needs the memory management to not be concurrent. 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:12.300 So, well, that's a bit of a problem if you have more than one thread. 00:25:12.600 --> 00:25:13.680 So it's about limiting. 00:25:13.860 --> 00:25:19.720 It's about managing memory stuff, but making that not concurrent to make that better. 00:25:20.260 --> 00:25:25.020 So a lot of the changes here are like, well, how can we allow the memory stuff to be concurrent, 00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:25.280 basically? 00:25:25.550 --> 00:25:27.660 So one of them is immortalized objects. 00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:31.260 So for example, true, false, none, seven. 00:25:31.810 --> 00:25:34.640 None of those need to have a reference count. 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:37.020 because they just get created at the start of the process. 00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:38.560 There's only one of them, right? 00:25:38.570 --> 00:25:40.440 There's no reason to like, oh, true's gone now. 00:25:40.580 --> 00:25:41.160 No one's using true. 00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:42.440 Oh, true's back, right? 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:43.440 There's just one true. 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:44.820 There's just one true. 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:45.640 It's a singleton. 00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:48.540 And so all of those are what are now going to become 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.740 what are called immortal objects. 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:52.460 And pi increment and pi decrement, 00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.540 so basically adding and removing the number of users 00:25:55.610 --> 00:25:58.400 of that variable or object is a no op now, right? 00:25:58.520 --> 00:25:58.780 Okay. 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:00.540 And that's good for you and me. 00:26:00.930 --> 00:26:02.220 When we pass true and false around, 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.120 even if we're not doing it concurrently, 00:26:04.520 --> 00:26:07.800 It's just less instructions to like, yeah, use the structures. 00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:08.100 Right. 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:10.520 And it's more shared memory, all those kinds of things. 00:26:10.790 --> 00:26:15.980 They also are adding this thing called biased reference counting, which allows, basically 00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:21.900 it says, look, we, the problem before was we had like one number that said number of references 00:26:22.080 --> 00:26:22.580 to this object. 00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:26.900 And when somebody wants to change it, you could either lock the thread, take a lock and lock 00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:31.600 it every time per object, which is kind of crazy, or you just don't allow anybody to change 00:26:31.820 --> 00:26:32.960 it more than one at a time. 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:33.600 Hence the GIL. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:39.040 So this one says, well, let's change it so that on the thread that created the object, 00:26:39.620 --> 00:26:41.320 it behaves the same, right? 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.200 There's no locks, none of that kind of stuff. 00:26:43.230 --> 00:26:45.560 It just works on it, references it directly. 00:26:45.650 --> 00:26:50.580 But if it's shared, there's like a secondary count, like others, other references or something 00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:57.300 called bias reference counting, where those are managed in a thread safe way. 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.120 Because most of the time objects and things are not shared across threads, 00:27:01.300 --> 00:27:04.360 Even in a multi-threaded app, the little temporary variables and loop variables, 00:27:04.520 --> 00:27:06.460 those are still just on the one thread, right? 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:07.860 Stuff that shared is way less. 00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:10.720 So the reference counting is changing to make that work. 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:12.280 And what else? 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.780 There's a bunch of pseudo code telling you this is some intense stuff. 00:27:16.100 --> 00:27:19.780 A bunch of things about memory management, how that works, garbage collection, 00:27:20.320 --> 00:27:21.060 et cetera, et cetera. 00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:22.840 So I'm going to stop. 00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:25.380 People can dive into it, but this is the big deal. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.460 I think some of these changes will find their way just into Python period, 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:31.180 like the immortal objects. 00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:31.720 Yeah. 00:27:32.020 --> 00:27:34.180 There's no reason for that not to be in there. 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:35.300 That would just be useful for everyone. 00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:37.740 But other ones like this by reference counting, 00:27:38.280 --> 00:27:39.700 maybe you'd be slower, maybe take more memory. 00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:41.460 So maybe you don't want that, for example. 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:42.140 Yeah, maybe. 00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:43.140 What do you think? 00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:45.840 Oh, I think that removing the gil 00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:47.320 will be a sea change in Python. 00:27:48.220 --> 00:27:48.380 Sorry. 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:50.240 I think you're right. 00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:51.980 I think you're right. 00:27:51.980 --> 00:27:53.360 I think it's exciting. 00:27:53.740 --> 00:27:56.100 I think, you know, I've said this a bunch of times, 00:27:56.340 --> 00:27:58.300 like I haven't even looked recently. 00:27:58.540 --> 00:28:05.160 I'm pretty sure this computer here has, I think, 10 cores that I'm on right now. 00:28:05.580 --> 00:28:09.800 And if I run Python code, as hard as it can possibly go, it's 10%, right? 00:28:10.120 --> 00:28:14.580 And that's just, it would be better if that wasn't completely baked into the runtime. 00:28:14.800 --> 00:28:17.680 I actually hope that it's just kind of a non-event. 00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:22.400 Like, it's a just, we just don't have a GIL anymore, and people can stop complaining about that. 00:28:22.660 --> 00:28:26.440 And I don't care if things get a little, I mean, I like things to go faster. 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:28.800 I don't care if it goes a little slower because of this. 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:30.920 It's going to go faster eventually anyway. 00:28:31.080 --> 00:28:33.500 Wait till the next round of CPUs coming out. 00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:34.460 Right. 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:38.340 It's the next faster CPython release as well. 00:28:39.140 --> 00:28:47.920 And then also just having people in Python being able to get used to doing more asynchronous and threaded things. 00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:50.860 I think that's a good thing for the language. 00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:52.600 So, yeah, I'm excited. 00:28:53.120 --> 00:28:57.940 But a big part of me, I understand the going slow and we don't want to break everybody. 00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:02.560 But part of me was like, just, oh, just do it and we'll clean up the mess afterwards. 00:29:03.580 --> 00:29:03.700 Yeah. 00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:04.220 Yeah. 00:29:04.940 --> 00:29:06.140 I understand the caution. 00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:12.380 Well, if they get it as a compilation flag, it's nothing there to say that, oh, you couldn't 00:29:12.760 --> 00:29:18.060 possibly like that the way we compile Python that gets distributed in a few versions, right? 00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:18.560 Right. 00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:21.720 But eventually we're going to, eventually that won't be the case. 00:29:22.040 --> 00:29:24.000 Eventually, we're going to try to get rid of that. 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.960 If it all goes well in a couple versions later or something, 00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:33.180 the default will be the no-gil version or something, with my guess. 00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:38.400 And there'll be a flag to say to add the GIL if you really need it still for a while. 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:39.540 And then they'll work. 00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:40.260 Yep, excellent. 00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:40.720 Anyway. 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.280 I agree. 00:29:42.340 --> 00:29:43.040 We'll see where it goes. 00:29:44.040 --> 00:29:46.640 There was just this thread on Mastodon, which you were copying on. 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:53.420 I don't know if you saw it today, but asking what is Python 3.14 going to be called? 00:29:54.470 --> 00:29:59.400 Of course, it's going to be the symbol Python because it's 3.14, right? 00:29:59.540 --> 00:30:00.360 It's so incredible. 00:30:00.830 --> 00:30:04.560 So maybe in Python, it'll be the default. 00:30:04.630 --> 00:30:05.060 You never know. 00:30:06.340 --> 00:30:06.860 Yeah. 00:30:07.340 --> 00:30:09.940 You have to pause and do the I thing. 00:30:10.560 --> 00:30:10.960 Python. 00:30:12.460 --> 00:30:12.700 Exactly. 00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:13.820 Yeah. 00:30:14.660 --> 00:30:15.680 It's going to be fun to have. 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.560 that episode is going to be nonstop when we, 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:22.340 when it's time to talk about the upcoming release of Pi. 00:30:23.020 --> 00:30:23.500 Yeah. 00:30:24.300 --> 00:30:24.560 Yeah. 00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:24.860 The, 00:30:25.220 --> 00:30:27.740 the other follow on is like trying to guess when, 00:30:28.260 --> 00:30:28.740 when, 00:30:29.100 --> 00:30:34.540 when the release of 3.14.15 will come out. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:38.480 Like that'll be maybe a couple of years after it'd be like a security 00:30:38.620 --> 00:30:39.320 release or something. 00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:40.780 Yeah. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:41.060 So, 00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:42.000 ah, 00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:42.380 oh, 00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:42.560 well, 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:43.920 it'll be good. 00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:45.000 Speaking of, 00:30:45.020 --> 00:30:51.920 I don't know what I was speaking of, but I want to cover why the Django admin is so ugly. 00:30:53.580 --> 00:30:54.760 I didn't say it was ugly. 00:30:55.420 --> 00:30:57.000 Vince Salvino says it's ugly. 00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:58.060 You're going to get mail. 00:30:58.980 --> 00:30:59.820 No, Vince will. 00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:07.140 Anyway, I've noticed this before and kind of I understand it now, but I remember trying. 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:09.520 So I'm doing a Django project now. 00:31:09.860 --> 00:31:13.000 I remember jumping into Django like years ago, 00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.640 and I was surprised when I jumped in again 00:31:16.040 --> 00:31:18.800 and saw that the admin kind of looks the same 00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:19.940 as it did a long time ago. 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:22.620 And it was kind of, you know, 00:31:22.780 --> 00:31:24.280 there's been some minor changes and stuff, 00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:26.540 but okay, this is actually a great article. 00:31:26.740 --> 00:31:28.040 Why is the Django admin ugly? 00:31:29.179 --> 00:31:30.960 There's some great quotes in here. 00:31:31.580 --> 00:31:32.580 I'm going to jump down to them. 00:31:33.340 --> 00:31:35.040 The Django admin is not ugly. 00:31:35.300 --> 00:31:37.480 Rather, no effort was made to make it beautiful, 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:38.840 a beautiful end user tool. 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:44.880 it looks like a developer made it oh okay i understand and that's from ken uh whitesel um 00:31:45.340 --> 00:31:51.800 the another one uh the admins recommended use is limited to an organization's internal management 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.640 tool it's not intended for building your entire front end around um so the yeah yeah so that's 00:31:57.800 --> 00:32:03.180 basically the gist of this also the django admin was built for phil one of my favorite quotes um 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:04.880 This is from Jacob Kaplan Moss. 00:32:05.340 --> 00:32:09.820 Phil being the, what, Phil was the Phil Cothen? 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.200 Then editor of Lawrence.com. 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:16.780 Yeah, because the history of Django is it's around like newspaper publishing. 00:32:18.140 --> 00:32:26.880 And so basically it's a database front end for people that are adminning a site. 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:29.840 It's not intended for end user stuff. 00:32:30.540 --> 00:32:32.060 So I'm going to jump down. 00:32:33.020 --> 00:32:36.780 There was apparently a quote from 0.9 days of admin. 00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:37.620 It's not your app. 00:32:38.600 --> 00:32:41.660 And the gist of it, where am I going to find it? 00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:43.680 It comes from Curtis Maloney. 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:47.440 It says, encouraging people to build their own management interface 00:32:48.040 --> 00:32:51.580 and treat the admin as a DB admin tool has saved a lot of people pain. 00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:55.380 The effort to customize it grows far faster than the payoffs. 00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:58.900 So the gist of it is it's intentionally not that pretty 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:03.100 because they don't want you to intentionally try to make it pretty 00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.000 to expose it to end users. 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:06.720 It's supposed to be ugly. 00:33:07.340 --> 00:33:08.400 It's not ugly. 00:33:08.620 --> 00:33:10.040 It's just not supposed to be pretty. 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.500 Chris also says it's meant to be ugly. 00:33:13.100 --> 00:33:13.280 Yeah. 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:20.580 Anyway, I appreciate the honesty of like, yeah, we know it looks like that, 00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:21.280 but it works. 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.400 It's like the Craigslist of admin interfaces. 00:33:26.600 --> 00:33:27.800 Oh, it's fancy for Craigslist. 00:33:28.520 --> 00:33:28.700 Yeah. 00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:32.540 - Yeah, anyway, good write up, Vince, so thanks. 00:33:32.620 --> 00:33:34.340 - It is, and I think it's also pretty interesting 00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:35.700 to remind people, like, you know, really, 00:33:36.040 --> 00:33:38.160 it's meant for people running the website, 00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:40.280 not something that should be user-facing. 00:33:40.820 --> 00:33:43.200 - Well, yeah, and even that, like, if you're, 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.000 you wouldn't, you'd have another interface 00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:47.140 for like writers writing stuff, 00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.800 but if there was like a quick typo or something like that, 00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:54.700 and somebody can just hop in and change the database, so. 00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:55.400 - Yeah. 00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:56.900 - And I have appreciated it. 00:33:57.060 --> 00:33:59.500 There's been a lot of things that I've put together 00:33:59.800 --> 00:34:02.420 that having the admin interface there 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.700 is better than going right into the database, 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:06.980 using SQL to change stuff. 00:34:08.640 --> 00:34:11.580 And often, I don't have any user-facing admin. 00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:16.200 It's just showing the data that's stored in there. 00:34:16.399 --> 00:34:18.040 So anyway, it's fine. 00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:18.560 Yeah. 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.340 Blaze out there suggests maybe using Textual 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:22.800 to create a TUI admin. 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:23.820 That'll do it. 00:34:25.060 --> 00:34:25.159 Yeah. 00:34:25.520 --> 00:34:26.520 Let's replace it with something. 00:34:27.020 --> 00:34:27.139 Yeah. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.620 I'm not going to say you won't get normal. 00:34:30.080 --> 00:34:34.720 You definitely won't get regular users to fire up an SSH session and do we 00:34:34.740 --> 00:34:35.060 into it? 00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:35.580 No. 00:34:35.720 --> 00:34:35.800 Yeah. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:36.300 But I'm, 00:34:36.399 --> 00:34:36.620 I'm, 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:38.840 I'm waiting for somebody to build like, 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.399 cause textual can build textual can have web interfaces now too. 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:44.179 Actually. 00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:44.540 Yeah. 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:45.700 So you could have a, 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:45.879 a, 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.419 you could do a, 00:34:47.520 --> 00:34:47.620 a, 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:52.020 like a skin on top of the Django admin and have it be a textual based 00:34:52.240 --> 00:34:52.360 thing. 00:34:52.399 --> 00:34:52.879 That'd be fun. 00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:53.480 Yeah. 00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:54.220 Indeed. 00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:55.260 Waiting for that. 00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:01.800 all right uh that's our items um uh do you have any extras for us i'm feeling extra today i do 00:35:02.190 --> 00:35:09.640 okay let's see first of all this is a two points in time sort of thing andy mckay on mastodon says 00:35:10.100 --> 00:35:20.039 uh what was it before it said the psf as in at the psf no longer is going to use x twitter i've 00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:25.940 you know so many places are saying x the place you know formerly known as twitter like what an 00:35:26.200 --> 00:35:30.920 insanely big fumble with branding like after six months that people can't just say the name like 00:35:31.020 --> 00:35:34.540 people say meta and people know what they're talking about they don't have they don't say 00:35:35.120 --> 00:35:39.180 x you know the thing that used to be twitter so i propose we just call it x twitter because a lot 00:35:39.180 --> 00:35:44.280 of us are not on x twitter as much and it has x and it also tells you it's twitter so anyway how 00:35:44.300 --> 00:35:44.900 How about Zitter? 00:35:45.240 --> 00:35:47.360 Like, just take off the TW. 00:35:47.620 --> 00:35:48.220 Just be a Zitter. 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:49.340 Yeah, there you go. 00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:56.300 So the big news, really, the reason I bring this up is the at the PSF is now on Bostadon.org. 00:35:56.700 --> 00:35:58.700 So therefore on Mastodon in general. 00:35:59.100 --> 00:35:59.280 Nice. 00:35:59.600 --> 00:36:00.940 And I encourage you to go follow them. 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:03.380 They have a lot of followers, I believe, already right away. 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:03.880 Let's see. 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.460 Yeah, 9,000 followers, which that might not sound like a lot. 00:36:07.580 --> 00:36:09.140 But for Mastodon, that's a lot. 00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.300 So we can get them a few more today. 00:36:11.500 --> 00:36:11.940 Check that out. 00:36:12.160 --> 00:36:12.460 Yeah. 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:13.580 It's like dog years. 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.280 Yes, exactly. 00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:22.500 So now the post is updated saying, oh, they might actually come back because they originally said they're leaving Twitter. 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:23.720 They're leaving ex-Twitter. 00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:25.120 But they actually might still use it. 00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:26.260 Nobody's really sure anymore. 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:28.360 But at least they are on Faucet On. 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:28.820 So that's cool. 00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:29.320 Check them out. 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:29.920 Yeah. 00:36:30.120 --> 00:36:34.100 I have a feeling that there's a lot of like Twitter people that are, it's right only. 00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:35.300 Like I'm a right only. 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:37.020 I've got a Twitter account, but it's right only. 00:36:37.100 --> 00:36:39.520 I check it like once a month or something. 00:36:40.180 --> 00:36:42.040 Yeah, mine's kind of like regular expressions as well. 00:36:42.200 --> 00:36:42.480 Right only. 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:43.980 yeah 00:36:44.980 --> 00:36:45.200 so 00:36:45.600 --> 00:36:45.740 I 00:36:45.940 --> 00:36:46.940 I will 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:47.260 I do 00:36:47.520 --> 00:36:48.540 people do send me messages there 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:49.500 and I appreciate that 00:36:49.600 --> 00:36:50.320 and I go check them out 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:50.660 but 00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:51.540 in terms of like 00:36:51.640 --> 00:36:52.320 having conversations 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:53.080 yeah 00:36:53.620 --> 00:36:53.720 okay 00:36:54.220 --> 00:36:55.300 so that's one 00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:55.760 I have others 00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:57.420 big new announcement 00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.140 for a new course 00:36:58.560 --> 00:36:59.680 data science jumpstart 00:36:59.700 --> 00:37:00.480 with 10 projects 00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:01.720 this is awesome 00:37:02.240 --> 00:37:02.380 yeah 00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:03.940 a little over 3 hours 00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:05.420 put together by Matt Harrison 00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:06.300 who knows his 00:37:06.700 --> 00:37:08.000 his data science things 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:08.580 so 00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:09.480 a lot of cool stuff 00:37:09.560 --> 00:37:10.480 that you can learn through here 00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:11.560 basically exploring 00:37:11.580 --> 00:37:20.300 10 different data sets like working with student CSV information Excel integration merging merging 00:37:20.600 --> 00:37:25.560 data across different data sets like an Airbnb data set example and so on and so on so if people 00:37:25.660 --> 00:37:30.840 want to check that out they can see the link in the show notes so that's a really really fun one 00:37:31.180 --> 00:37:36.640 definitely encourage you to check it out all right we talked a lot about AI's chat AI's ChatGPT etc 00:37:36.660 --> 00:37:36.880 et cetera. 00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:39.860 Have you played with GPT for all? 00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:45.020 No, I believe this might even be some Python going strong here. 00:37:45.020 --> 00:37:46.040 Let me double check really quick. 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:46.380 Yeah. 00:37:46.700 --> 00:37:47.580 13% at least. 00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:54.120 So GPT for all is, kind of a ChatGPT interface, but it's open source. 00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:54.680 It's free. 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:56.240 It runs on the three main platforms. 00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.940 Windows OS, since OS X or OS X, no it's macOS, but whatever. 00:38:01.600 --> 00:38:02.180 And Ubuntu. 00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:06.560 so you can get a get for those, three platforms. 00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:11.980 And basically it gives you a list of maybe eight or nine different models that you can 00:38:12.180 --> 00:38:17.820 download and run locally without sharing your data with anyone else, just run them locally. 00:38:18.220 --> 00:38:22.740 And you could also try out the different, like the llama models versus the OpenAI type 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:23.600 models and others. 00:38:24.180 --> 00:38:29.160 So if you want like a local and free and pretty good, actually, I tried it out and it gave 00:38:29.160 --> 00:38:31.320 me some really good answers for a couple of questions. 00:38:32.200 --> 00:38:34.860 I use the wizard model, which it gives you the, 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:37.080 like it says, hey, give me some bullet points about this 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:38.600 or give me some ideas on this. 00:38:38.660 --> 00:38:39.920 And it will like give you the thing. 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:41.280 Then it gives you, like says hash. 00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:42.660 Here's why I suggested that. 00:38:42.740 --> 00:38:44.800 It highlights this and it features this aspect. 00:38:45.220 --> 00:38:47.080 This other thing does it in this way. 00:38:47.120 --> 00:38:48.700 And here's why I chose that one. 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:50.160 And it's pretty interesting. 00:38:51.100 --> 00:38:52.100 And open source and free. 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:53.660 So, you know, easy to try. 00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:54.840 Let's see. 00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:56.320 That's the same one. 00:38:56.680 --> 00:38:59.220 Finally, Brian, my last extra is in. 00:38:59.640 --> 00:39:01.240 I already handed this at the beginning. 00:39:01.600 --> 00:39:06.340 but in the show notes I have an invite if you want to be on Fosstodon again there's like a thousand 00:39:06.540 --> 00:39:12.280 instances on Mastodon go crazy pick the one that's for you but if Fosstodon like the at PSF folks 00:39:12.700 --> 00:39:17.140 they're on Fosstodon you require it's requiring an invite now so I have an invite that is good until 00:39:17.340 --> 00:39:24.340 November 7th and you can go and click it and accept this if you long as you like the policies 00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:30.160 don't make us look bad be nice that's what it's about that's why it's invite only yeah and when 00:39:30.180 --> 00:39:31.040 Can you take advantage of that? 00:39:31.120 --> 00:39:34.240 Be sure to subscribe or follow all of us. 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:35.460 Yeah, absolutely. 00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:35.920 Follow us. 00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:36.420 Cool. 00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:37.020 Nice. 00:39:38.460 --> 00:39:39.720 Are you done with your extras? 00:39:40.140 --> 00:39:40.760 I'm done with my extras. 00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:41.200 You got anything? 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:41.460 Okay. 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.640 We're talking about PyCon, and I want to plug local conferences. 00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:51.400 So when people are thinking about the footprint of traveling across the country or traveling to a different country, 00:39:52.160 --> 00:39:54.340 I like the idea of more local conferences. 00:39:55.080 --> 00:39:57.880 And I like that, like, Pie Cascades is great, 00:39:58.140 --> 00:40:04.000 and it travels between Vancouver and Seattle and in Portland. 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:05.340 It's going to be in Seattle next. 00:40:06.140 --> 00:40:10.060 This article I'm highlighting is talking about Copenhagen, 00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:12.240 Django Day Copenhagen, which has already passed, 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:13.320 so don't try to go there. 00:40:14.200 --> 00:40:17.740 But it's just basically talking about how maybe it's better, 00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:19.060 maybe it would be better to, 00:40:19.680 --> 00:40:22.260 instead of shipping the people around to see speakers, 00:40:22.520 --> 00:40:24.760 maybe we could just ship the speakers around to the people. 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:26.560 and doing that. 00:40:27.160 --> 00:40:28.540 I actually think it'd be great 00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:29.680 to have more local conferences 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:31.660 that have more sponsorships 00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:32.620 that actually help out 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.060 with the travel for speakers. 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:34.680 That'd be great. 00:40:35.020 --> 00:40:36.180 So that's one of my extras. 00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:37.660 Yay, local conferences. 00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:38.900 I wanted to highlight 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.460 what I was doing at 11 o'clock on Tuesday. 00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:43.260 I was getting ready for Halloween. 00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:44.620 Oh, that's spooky. 00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:46.060 On Fosstodon, 00:40:46.060 --> 00:40:48.640 I've got some pictures of our decorations. 00:40:49.080 --> 00:40:50.000 So we're getting ready for that. 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:51.720 Speaking of Fosstodon, 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:53.960 something I saw today 00:40:53.980 --> 00:40:57.860 was this awesome crossword puzzle 00:40:58.460 --> 00:41:00.660 with hints in regular expression. 00:41:01.540 --> 00:41:02.400 No way. 00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:04.160 This is great. 00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:09.760 We'll got a link to this person refreshing apathy. 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.900 Got it from a MIT mystery hunt puzzle index, 00:41:14.540 --> 00:41:17.260 which includes both the puzzle, a puzzle link, 00:41:18.700 --> 00:41:20.600 but also the answer sheet is there. 00:41:20.680 --> 00:41:24.900 So this is just insane as far as the crossword puzzle goes. 00:41:25.740 --> 00:41:26.880 And it's not words. 00:41:26.930 --> 00:41:27.840 So in several years when you solve it, 00:41:27.870 --> 00:41:29.080 you can check and see if you got it right. 00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:30.420 Yeah, but it's not words. 00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:31.120 It's just random. 00:41:31.580 --> 00:41:35.400 I'd like to see it have actual words be fun to do that. 00:41:35.700 --> 00:41:36.960 So those are my extras. 00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:37.640 Excellent. 00:41:38.659 --> 00:41:40.140 That crossword puzzle is nuts. 00:41:40.210 --> 00:41:42.880 It reminds me of 25-way rock, paper, scissor. 00:41:45.180 --> 00:41:45.420 Yeah. 00:41:45.740 --> 00:41:46.540 Have you seen that? 00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:47.120 It's amazing. 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:48.240 Yeah, it's pretty good. 00:41:48.500 --> 00:41:48.680 Yeah. 00:41:49.020 --> 00:41:49.220 All right. 00:41:49.740 --> 00:41:50.460 You ready for a joke? 00:41:50.580 --> 00:41:50.920 I am. 00:41:51.350 --> 00:41:57.280 So this one, says when you search YouTube for days to fix a specific bug. 00:41:57.720 --> 00:41:58.120 Okay. 00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:02.060 You know, my, my slogan is you're never hardcore enough for YouTube. 00:42:02.300 --> 00:42:06.540 Like if you search, if you watch three videos on something like 50% of what it's 00:42:06.620 --> 00:42:08.560 going to show you the rest of the time is just that. 00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:10.820 And like, I was just trying to assemble my furniture. 00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:14.980 I'm not the world's biggest fan of like furniture construction. 00:42:15.230 --> 00:42:16.660 Like all YouTube things you are now. 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:18.200 So it's kind of that version. 00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:21.140 Like when you search YouTube for days to fix a specific bug, 00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:23.820 once it starts the video, 00:42:23.890 --> 00:42:26.820 it suggests not everyone should code recommended for you. 00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:29.940 That's good. 00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:33.900 So bad. 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:35.940 You don't want me to code? 00:42:36.580 --> 00:42:38.160 In eight minutes of 47 seconds, 00:42:38.270 --> 00:42:39.720 you should abandon all hope. 00:42:40.040 --> 00:42:40.540 Says the video. 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:41.560 How long it is. 00:42:41.870 --> 00:42:43.540 I kind of want to watch that video now though. 00:42:44.110 --> 00:42:44.780 Just trying to find out. 00:42:44.850 --> 00:42:45.280 I do too. 00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:48.080 It's not everyone should code by polymatter, 00:42:48.140 --> 00:42:49.720 apparently is what it says in the screenshot. 00:42:50.100 --> 00:42:50.360 Yeah. 00:42:50.550 --> 00:42:51.880 And they've got a black checkmark. 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:52.480 Yeah. 00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:53.140 Awesome. 00:42:53.700 --> 00:42:56.020 Well, thanks again for a wonderful episode. 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.980 And thanks Scout APM for sponsoring. 00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:01.880 And thanks everybody for showing up and watching the show. 00:43:02.220 --> 00:43:02.780 Yeah, you bet. 00:43:02.890 --> 00:43:03.200 Bye everyone. 00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:03.540 Bye.