WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:04.800 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:11.600 This is episode 377, recorded April 2nd, 2024, so it's not an April Fool's joke. 00:00:11.600 --> 00:00:13.340 And I am Brian Okken. 00:00:13.340 --> 00:00:14.780 I am Michael Kennedy. 00:00:14.780 --> 00:00:18.440 This episode is sponsored by Scout APM. 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.240 Please listen to their segment later in the show. 00:00:21.240 --> 00:00:30.360 If you want to connect with us, we're at Fosstodon on Mastodon at Adam Kennedy @brianokken and at Python Bytes at fosstodon.org. 00:00:30.360 --> 00:00:36.600 And if you'd like to join us live for the live show, show up at pythonbytes.fm/live. 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:41.800 Actually, you can just go there anytime and it tells you when the next recording is so you can put it on your calendar. 00:00:41.800 --> 00:00:56.640 And finally, if you want an artisanal handcrafted digest of every week of show notes in your email, so maybe you don't want to take notes while you're listening or you miss an episode, you can get it right in your email. 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:03.040 Just go to the pythonbytes.fm and look for friends of the show and you'll get an email. 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:05.940 Yeah, that's a cool thing we just started doing. 00:01:05.940 --> 00:01:11.240 So if you want to just, you don't have time to listen or you forget to show up for an episode, it'll just show up. 00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:13.040 And I love the artisanal part, Brian. 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:13.760 Well done on that. 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.240 Very, it's very craftsman-like. 00:01:16.240 --> 00:01:18.140 Yeah, anyway. 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:20.680 I just want to talk about paths today. 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:21.540 Can we just talk about paths? 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:22.640 Yeah, just paths. 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:23.180 Nothing else. 00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:24.060 No, nothing. 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:24.580 Just paths. 00:01:24.580 --> 00:01:26.080 Actually, that's what it's called. 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:26.860 Just paths. 00:01:26.860 --> 00:01:33.500 Okay, so here's a tool that is built in Python and just is just a language. 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:35.180 It's 1.2% just. 00:01:35.380 --> 00:01:35.700 I don't know. 00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:36.760 This is too meta. 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:41.780 Anyway, it's a quick CLI tool built with Python. 00:01:41.780 --> 00:01:46.780 And when you hear that, the first thing you should think is, PipX install the thing. 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:50.260 Because that's how you install CLI tools for Python, right? 00:01:50.260 --> 00:01:51.900 It gets managed on its own. 00:01:51.900 --> 00:01:54.660 It's upgradable through PipX and all the things. 00:01:54.660 --> 00:01:55.820 They made a little mistake here. 00:01:55.820 --> 00:01:59.040 Like, I should do a PR and put an X on the PipX install just path. 00:01:59.040 --> 00:01:59.520 Okay. 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:00.360 So what is this thing? 00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:05.980 What it does is it's for Windows and macOS, I believe is what it's for. 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:06.680 No. 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:09.620 Windows, Linux, and macOS as well. 00:02:09.620 --> 00:02:12.120 Because it basically pretends macOS is Linux. 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:19.080 And what it does is it will look at your path variable and see, help you determine if it's good. 00:02:19.160 --> 00:02:23.700 So if you want to answer questions like, when I type Python, I always get Python 2. 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:24.560 Why is that? 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.840 When I type Python, I get Python 3.10, but I have 3.12 installed. 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:28.640 Why is that? 00:02:29.600 --> 00:02:35.380 When I pip install or PipX install a thing, it claims that stuff that gets installed by it won't be in the path. 00:02:35.380 --> 00:02:36.480 Wait, I thought it was. 00:02:36.480 --> 00:02:37.080 Oh, no, wait. 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:38.860 That was 3.11, not the 3.12 version of that. 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:41.700 All these complicated little weird things that you run into all the time. 00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:45.680 This is just a CLI tool that you just say, tell me how am I doing? 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.220 What is my path? 00:02:47.220 --> 00:02:48.040 What stuff? 00:02:48.040 --> 00:02:54.060 Like, do I have something in my path that links to a directory, but the directory is no longer there? 00:02:54.060 --> 00:03:06.100 So, for example, if I have Python 3.10 in my path, but I've uninstalled Python 3.10, but it's still in my .cshrc or bashrc file or Windows path environment variables or whatever, right? 00:03:06.100 --> 00:03:06.780 That kind of stuff. 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:07.420 Cool, huh? 00:03:07.420 --> 00:03:09.000 Yeah, actually, very cool. 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:10.940 Yeah, so it does a bunch of different things. 00:03:10.940 --> 00:03:14.220 It can do just --raw to show you what it is. 00:03:14.220 --> 00:03:20.320 You can just run it by itself, and it gives you this colored output of each element in your path. 00:03:20.480 --> 00:03:28.520 So it parses the path, and then it goes line by line and tells you green this exists, yellow it's a duplicate of something that was there before. 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:35.680 So if you have something in your path multiple times, maybe it's earlier and later, and you thought it should be later, so that's also a weird thing going on. 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.300 Or it'll turn it red if there are some that don't exist. 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:39.900 Yeah? 00:03:39.900 --> 00:03:40.860 So that's pretty cool. 00:03:40.860 --> 00:03:44.000 You can ask for just the invalids just for the duplicates. 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.020 You can ask it to follow symlinks and then resolve whether those are duplicates or not. 00:03:48.440 --> 00:03:53.660 And then you can say, give me a corrected version as a string or not as a string, as a list. 00:03:53.660 --> 00:03:58.640 And then that will let you basically remove the duplicates, remove the missings, and go from there. 00:03:58.640 --> 00:04:02.120 There's a little video here that's a giffy or something. 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.600 I don't know. 00:04:02.600 --> 00:04:09.640 But if you want to watch the video, you can pull it up, and you'll see what it looks like when it runs and all the colors and stuff. 00:04:09.640 --> 00:04:11.860 But it's super easy to try out. 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:14.240 So I recommend people check out JustPath. 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:15.700 I think it's handy. 00:04:15.700 --> 00:04:17.800 My score is not that amazing. 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:18.880 I just ran it, Brian. 00:04:18.880 --> 00:04:20.320 42 directories in my path. 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:21.760 12 do not exist. 00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:22.960 Fully 12 of them. 00:04:22.960 --> 00:04:25.180 And four of which that do are duplicates. 00:04:25.180 --> 00:04:25.840 Yeah. 00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:28.200 I've got a bunch of problems with mine. 00:04:28.200 --> 00:04:28.760 Okay. 00:04:28.760 --> 00:04:29.980 Who knew, right? 00:04:30.200 --> 00:04:33.140 Well, you kind of keep things around. 00:04:33.140 --> 00:04:34.640 You install stuff, change things. 00:04:34.640 --> 00:04:34.820 Yeah. 00:04:34.820 --> 00:04:36.460 This stuff is write only, right? 00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:38.060 Why would you take stuff out of your path? 00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:40.320 You just keep adding to it and adding to it. 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:44.420 But then, like you say, you uninstall things, stuff changes, et cetera. 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:44.860 Yeah. 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:52.500 I have added my user's Okken.local slash bin. 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:56.600 Apparently, that doesn't exist anymore, and I don't even remember ever using that. 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:58.320 Okay. 00:04:58.320 --> 00:04:59.560 Cool. 00:04:59.880 --> 00:05:00.180 Interesting. 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:00.640 Yeah. 00:05:00.640 --> 00:05:02.980 It's easy to adopt and use. 00:05:02.980 --> 00:05:05.920 You just pipX install it, and you just run the thing, and it tells you what's up. 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:06.380 Cool. 00:05:06.380 --> 00:05:08.500 Well, that's exciting. 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:11.180 I have, like, you know, doom and gloom next. 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:12.740 Oh, no. 00:05:12.740 --> 00:05:13.360 Yeah. 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.380 The XZ backdoor. 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:18.980 I don't know if everybody's heard about this. 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:22.320 It just really sort of popped up last Friday, so it's fairly recent. 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:24.380 Have you been keeping up on XZ? 00:05:24.380 --> 00:05:28.160 Yeah, it definitely has caught my attention and makes me quite nervous. 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:35.840 I think we just missed this in getting released to basically every server on the internet, 00:05:35.840 --> 00:05:36.960 which is really good. 00:05:36.960 --> 00:05:37.920 Yeah. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:38.000 Yeah. 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:38.080 Yeah. 00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:38.160 Yeah. 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:44.620 So if you've just sort of heard about it, I'm going to provide a lot of articles on it, 00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:46.080 and some of it has good information. 00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:51.000 Some of it has dubious, a little bit, maybe opinionated stuff, which is fine. 00:05:51.460 --> 00:05:55.060 But I'm linking to an article from Evan Bowen. 00:05:55.060 --> 00:05:56.180 Evan Bowes? 00:05:56.180 --> 00:05:57.540 B-O-E-H-S. 00:05:57.540 --> 00:05:58.900 Not sure how to pronounce that. 00:05:58.900 --> 00:05:59.240 Anyway. 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:01.960 Everything I know about the XZ backdoor. 00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:07.200 And it's a fairly curated timeline of what the backdoor is. 00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:10.100 But, well, it's about the timeline of how it happened. 00:06:10.100 --> 00:06:15.720 But the gist, if you haven't heard about it, this is that there was a backdoor added to, 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:17.240 I think it's XZ Utils. 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:22.500 XZ is the compression or like an unzipper, zipper, unzipper sort of thing. 00:06:23.320 --> 00:06:28.180 And archive tool for Linux and other Unix-like distributions. 00:06:28.180 --> 00:06:33.280 So it's a weird story that start this multi-year. 00:06:33.280 --> 00:06:42.060 That's the part that's freaky, is a little utility that's included everywhere that starting 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:48.680 in 2021, somebody, well, they went by the name of GIA Tan, but nobody really believes 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:54.440 that that's really their name, started contributing to open source, added a patch. 00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:58.400 And these patches were added like in long, long times apart. 00:06:58.400 --> 00:07:05.460 And then ended up becoming a maintainer of XZ and then creating in part of the test code. 00:07:05.460 --> 00:07:13.800 And there wasn't a vulnerability in GitHub, but there was in the distributed TAR release. 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:14.580 I don't know. 00:07:14.580 --> 00:07:17.460 There's a lot of details that I didn't quite follow all of it. 00:07:17.780 --> 00:07:20.020 However, yuck and weird. 00:07:20.020 --> 00:07:24.840 And so the part that I want to talk about really is one, you should just be aware of this. 00:07:24.840 --> 00:07:26.040 And we're going to link to a good article. 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:26.940 I think it's- 00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:31.760 Brian, before you go on a little farther, because before we watch this, the real basics of it, 00:07:31.760 --> 00:07:41.720 basically this vulnerability was intentionally put there as a backdoor to break open SSH connections. 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:50.480 So the idea was if you can SSH to your server, this was going to give other people SSH access to your server, which is extraordinarily bad. 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:50.920 Yeah. 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:51.040 Yeah. 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.760 And SSH into it with root access. 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:56.620 So they have like full access, really. 00:07:56.620 --> 00:07:57.540 Yeah. 00:07:57.540 --> 00:07:57.980 Terrible. 00:07:57.980 --> 00:07:59.340 Would have been a terrible backdoor. 00:07:59.340 --> 00:08:00.360 Glad it got caught. 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:16.720 So it got caught by like somebody at Microsoft, Microsoft Postgres team, I think, looking at some of their over like an update of XZ causing or actually a slowdown in some of their, I think it was in their test suite or something. 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:22.220 They were running micro benchmarks and they saw like a 600 millisecond slowdown or something like, geez, that's weird. 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:23.420 How about that? 00:08:23.420 --> 00:08:24.360 Testing for the win, Brian. 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:24.940 Yeah. 00:08:24.940 --> 00:08:28.920 And then also, I guess, Valgrind caught some problems with it as well. 00:08:29.960 --> 00:08:39.500 So I guess good thing that people were paying attention to that and then tracked it down fairly rapidly to a update of XZ. 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:45.000 And then, but then some of the unraveling of this is just, okay, so there was a vulnerability. 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:46.220 It got caught. 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:47.060 People are updating. 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:50.540 That's good because you really don't want this here. 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:56.180 However, some of the ways in which this happened are disturbing. 00:08:56.180 --> 00:09:08.620 And so that's why I think it's useful to read up on this a little bit, partly because this XZ utility was not, it's mostly maintained by one person over years. 00:09:08.620 --> 00:09:09.100 Right. 00:09:09.100 --> 00:09:26.360 So, and then somebody comes along and wants a patch and is sort of, there's some, some sort of kind of not nice things said, including things like clearly don't, don't do patches to this because they're, they don't, the current maintainers lost interest or doesn't care anymore. 00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:39.260 So, and then they're saying mean things like this kind of pressured, then this is way back in 2022, pressuring the person into adding another maintainer, then, Hey, there's another maintainer ready and they're adding garbage to it. 00:09:39.260 --> 00:09:39.580 So. 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:44.120 And they just happened to work for some state sponsored hacker group. 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.500 I'm sure they'll do a good job maintaining it for us. 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:47.100 Yeah. 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:49.400 So maybe. 00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:55.580 And, and there's, you know, basically, I guess, watch out for this, but also I think. 00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:59.280 So one of the things I wanted to talk about is how do we, how do we avoid stuff like this? 00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:05.340 This is, I don't have an answer for it, but there's a lot of people discussing like, what do we do about it? 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:13.300 Including a glyph whose answer may have been just is I'm willing to link to his article called software needs to be more expensive. 00:10:13.300 --> 00:10:14.080 Essentially. 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:16.380 We, we get a lot of free software. 00:10:16.380 --> 00:10:24.340 Maybe we should start paying the maintainers so that people, I mean, burnout is a real thing, but you pay people, they will work on stuff or somebody else will. 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:26.840 However, don't think that's this. 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.960 That's quite one of the interesting, his idea. 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:38.060 I'll just mention this because I think it's interesting is he's got an idea called just JGMM, just give maintainers money. 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:42.640 And his idea is not to have companies try to figure out who to give money to. 00:10:42.640 --> 00:10:51.680 It's, it's a, his idea is just give every software engineer with your company a discretionary budget of like, say, 50 bucks a month or whatever you want to do. 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.480 And, and they can distribute that money to open source maintainers however they want. 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:57.820 Interesting idea. 00:10:57.820 --> 00:11:02.520 I don't think if, even if that was in place, I don't think that it, which I think is a good idea. 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:06.480 I don't think it would be, have gone to XZ really. 00:11:07.760 --> 00:11:15.960 Cause I would have thought things like, you know, Django or, you know, it's Python, but, but would I give money to a little zip utility? 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:16.600 Probably not. 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:17.340 Anyway. 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:21.520 So I think this is a good thing to keep up on. 00:11:21.520 --> 00:11:26.380 And, and I do this idea of like bringing on maintainers. 00:11:26.380 --> 00:11:31.900 You didn't have to be able to do that, but you have to, how do you tell somebody who's going to be malicious a couple of years from now? 00:11:31.900 --> 00:11:32.480 I don't know. 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.680 That's, that's how do you, I don't think you can check for it. 00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:36.960 It is tough. 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:37.460 Yeah. 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:40.800 That person, that person played the long game for sure. 00:11:40.800 --> 00:11:41.460 Yeah. 00:11:41.460 --> 00:11:44.900 So I thought, well, okay, well, I don't run any servers, so I'm fine. 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:53.260 But then I ran across Jeff Triplett's article called upgrade, update and upgrade homebrew and the XZ versions. 00:11:53.260 --> 00:11:54.320 I'm like, what? 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:54.900 Yeah. 00:11:54.900 --> 00:11:59.820 So if you, you should, if you run homebrew on your Mac, you should run brew info XZ. 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:05.840 And if, if it shows up at 5.6 X you need to update. 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.320 And sure enough, I had the vulnerability on my machine. 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:14.680 I checked it and I was, I was out of date or I actually, I was, I had upgraded. 00:12:14.680 --> 00:12:15.300 To the new one. 00:12:15.300 --> 00:12:16.800 Thanks. 00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:17.340 Yeah. 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:17.960 I just checked. 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.080 I don't seem to have it, which is very good. 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:20.860 I don't know. 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:23.860 But the thing is you probably didn't install XZ. 00:12:23.860 --> 00:12:24.960 You probably installed. 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:25.420 Yeah. 00:12:25.420 --> 00:12:30.020 Other thing, which depended on something, which depended on XZ, which is all parts of the supply 00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:31.620 chain problems, which is scary. 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:32.060 Yeah. 00:12:32.060 --> 00:12:36.860 But I guess, thanks dude at Microsoft that found this. 00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:38.020 Yeah, indeed. 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:43.160 You know, you say you probably would think that the 50 bucks wouldn't go to XZ, but I 00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:44.540 really like Glyph's article. 00:12:44.540 --> 00:12:46.180 First of all, well done Glyph. 00:12:46.180 --> 00:12:49.740 That was a very nice article you wrote and I enjoyed reading it. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.880 It's also a very thoughtful idea. 00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:58.340 I think his idea is basically instead of trying to get large companies to come on and be sponsors 00:12:58.340 --> 00:12:59.960 of open source projects. 00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:04.740 Usually that's a huge negotiation and there's all sorts of stuff and right. 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:05.360 It's just not easy. 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.880 Just give everybody 50 bucks a year or a month. 00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:08.320 I can't remember. 00:13:08.380 --> 00:13:09.660 I think it was maybe a month. 00:13:09.660 --> 00:13:14.580 Anyway, give people a card and they could just donate it to whichever open source project 00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:15.680 that they would like. 00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:20.440 And I agree if there's a thousand people that did that, Brian, that XZ probably wouldn't 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:20.780 make it. 00:13:20.780 --> 00:13:25.880 But wouldn't it be awesome if there was a world where there were so many people who were 00:13:25.880 --> 00:13:30.180 just donating to open source that it became super lucrative that second tier projects were 00:13:30.180 --> 00:13:35.960 even potentially full-time things like rockstar developers, you know, like ballers are rolling 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:42.000 up in their Ferrari because they're running FastAPI or, you know, Sebastian is doing that. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.140 I mean, that would be really cool. 00:13:43.140 --> 00:13:47.480 Think of how much more open source to get created if it was sort of a gold rush as well. 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.260 So yeah, I think it would be neat. 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:55.940 And also even not necessarily a full-time job, but just to be able to say, even if I have to 00:13:55.940 --> 00:14:04.200 take the time unpaid from my normal job, if I took like a day a week off and just worked 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.460 on open source, my open source project instead. 00:14:06.460 --> 00:14:08.560 And sometimes it's not even adding features. 00:14:08.560 --> 00:14:12.960 It's just going through issues, doing all of the bookkeeping and the maintenance and everything. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:13.440 There's a lot. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:13.920 Review PRs. 00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:14.520 Yeah. 00:14:14.520 --> 00:14:16.420 Or maybe you're a consultant. 00:14:16.420 --> 00:14:18.880 You take one for your clients on something like that, right? 00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:19.900 Yeah, exactly. 00:14:19.900 --> 00:14:21.120 So thanks for that. 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:21.220 Very cool. 00:14:21.220 --> 00:14:21.740 Yeah. 00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:22.340 Yeah. 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:23.180 I'm glad you covered this. 00:14:23.180 --> 00:14:26.980 Well, we would like to thank Scout APM for sponsoring this episode. 00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:27.740 Thanks, Scout. 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.900 Let me tell you real quick about Scout APM. 00:14:31.900 --> 00:14:35.620 They're big supporters of Python Bytes, so we appreciate that very much. 00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:41.620 So if you are tired of spending hours trying to find the root cause of issues impacting your 00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:44.960 performance, then you owe it to yourself to check out Scout APM. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:51.220 They're a leading Python application performance monitoring tool, APM, that helps you identify 00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:54.220 and solve performance abnormalities faster and easier. 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:59.760 Scout APM ties bottlenecks such as memory leaks, slow database queries, background jobs, and 00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:05.340 the dreaded N plus one queries that you can end up if you do lazy loading in your ORM. 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:07.740 And then you say, oh, no, why is it so slow? 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:10.100 Why are you doing 200 database queries for what should be one? 00:15:10.100 --> 00:15:12.060 So you can find out things like that. 00:15:12.060 --> 00:15:16.460 And it links it back directly to source code so you can spend less time in the debugger and 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:19.440 tailing logs and just finding the problems and moving on. 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.680 And you'll love it because it's built for developers by developers. 00:15:22.680 --> 00:15:24.340 It makes it easy to get set up. 00:15:24.340 --> 00:15:26.860 Seriously, you can do it in less than four minutes. 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:27.700 So that's awesome. 00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:30.740 And the best part is the pricing is straightforward. 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:36.300 You only pay for the data that you use with no hidden overage fees or per seat pricing. 00:15:36.300 --> 00:15:38.820 And I just learned this, Brian. 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:43.980 They also have they provide the pro version for free to all open source projects. 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:48.520 So if you're an open source maintainer and you want to have Scout APM for that project, 00:15:48.520 --> 00:15:51.420 just shoot them a message or something on their pricing page about that. 00:15:51.420 --> 00:15:55.300 So you can start your free trial and get instant insights today. 00:15:55.300 --> 00:15:58.000 Visit by them by set of him slash Scout. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.240 The link is in your podcast player show notes as well. 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:01.640 And please use that link. 00:16:01.640 --> 00:16:05.620 Don't just search for them because otherwise they don't think you came from us. 00:16:05.620 --> 00:16:07.200 And then they'd stop supporting the show. 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.780 So please use our link by them by set of him slash Scout. 00:16:09.780 --> 00:16:10.700 Check them out. 00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:13.300 It really supports the show indeed. 00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:13.840 All right. 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.840 Now, Brian, let's talk about some fast stuff. 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:17.380 Okay. 00:16:17.380 --> 00:16:18.220 L Python. 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:19.540 Have you heard of L Python? 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:20.220 No. 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:21.180 This is news to me. 00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:25.520 So L Python is a high performance type Python compiler. 00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:29.560 So basically if you type annotations or type hints on your Python code, 00:16:29.560 --> 00:16:33.800 it can aggressively optimize and compile your Python code. 00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:37.840 And it uses multiple backends, which is pretty interesting. 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.140 So you can compile it using LLVM. 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:41.800 You can compile it to C. 00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:45.280 You can compile it to C++ or you can compile it to WASM WebAssembly. 00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:46.280 That's wild, right? 00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:46.880 Yeah. 00:16:46.880 --> 00:16:47.460 Yeah. 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:50.520 So right now, just a heads up before people get too excited. 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:51.700 It's an alpha stage. 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:55.360 So it's not quite ready for maybe adoption. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.060 But if you're curious about it, you should definitely check it out. 00:16:58.060 --> 00:16:59.620 You can play with it and so on. 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:02.240 And so it's starting to pick up speed. 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:03.800 It's got a little over a thousand GitHub stars. 00:17:03.800 --> 00:17:04.500 Cool. 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.820 And you can try it in your browser. 00:17:06.820 --> 00:17:08.200 Let's try the browser, huh? 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:10.640 Before I move on though, let's say it's fast. 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:15.040 It's built from the ground up to translate primarily data science-y code because that's 00:17:15.040 --> 00:17:17.980 primarily where things get slow and actually matter in Python. 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:22.460 But numerical array-oriented code into simple, readable, and fast code. 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:23.500 Basic math. 00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:29.780 So it knows about, you know, sized integers, for example, in 32 and so on. 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:36.080 It has a just-in-time compilation, which you can get if you don't want to run a compiler 00:17:36.080 --> 00:17:36.540 itself. 00:17:36.540 --> 00:17:41.220 You can just put a at lpython decorator onto a function and it'll just compile at a runtime, 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:44.420 which is kind of cool because then I guess you probably don't need to distribute binary 00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:47.880 versions on your packages, your wheels, and so on. 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.600 It's interoperable with CPython. 00:17:49.600 --> 00:17:53.360 So basically, you can call all the CPython functions. 00:17:53.360 --> 00:18:00.120 And it's also, if it works in CPython, it works here, it'll work in CPython, basically. 00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:02.020 Is it a subset, I guess, in a sense? 00:18:02.020 --> 00:18:03.040 And open source. 00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:04.460 All right, let's play with it for just a second. 00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:08.200 So if you go to dev.lpython.org, it loads up in the browser. 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.900 And you can notice it loaded pretty quickly, although I have gigabit internet. 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:12.880 It's still loaded pretty quickly. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:15.140 See this picture here on the screen behind? 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:20.020 This is the Mandelbrot set, which I don't know how many people have done fractals, but it's 00:18:20.020 --> 00:18:27.060 drawing two different copies of the Mandelbrot set in, what is that, a 600 by 600 image, maybe? 00:18:27.060 --> 00:18:27.600 Okay. 00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:31.500 About a black and white one and a color map one. 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:36.420 It says it took a little under half a second to compile it and 80 milliseconds to generate 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:37.080 those two images. 00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:41.200 And you can come over here and you can say, like, all right, what I'm going to do is, what 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:41.620 is that number? 00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:44.920 I'm going to make this, let's say, 355 iterations. 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:46.880 And then we'll run it again. 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.460 And 100 milliseconds, right? 00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:53.900 If I make that, if I make this something really silly here, like, oh no, why did that 00:18:53.900 --> 00:18:54.160 go away? 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:58.180 Back button is not supposed, or the delete button is not supposed to navigate backwards. 00:18:58.180 --> 00:18:58.580 Hold on. 00:18:58.580 --> 00:18:59.700 Ooh, really big. 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:00.140 There we go. 00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:01.140 All right, there we go. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:01.520 Okay. 00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:04.120 So if I run it again, though, watch how fast this is. 00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:05.160 Like, boom, that's it. 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.100 And then I'll put it back to, what was it before? 00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:09.220 I'm going to be real weird the way it's like capturing my mouse. 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:12.620 But anyway, people can come check this out and see it running. 00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:15.120 It runs super fast as Python. 00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:21.780 And you think all this iterative generating a ton of paralyzed computation in WebAssembly, 00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:23.860 in the browser, with Python. 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:24.960 I'm pretty impressed. 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:26.220 Yeah, that's pretty cool. 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:26.680 Neat. 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:27.940 Who's behind this? 00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:28.220 Do you know? 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:29.320 Mr. L Python? 00:19:29.320 --> 00:19:30.420 I have no idea, honestly. 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:31.120 Okay. 00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:34.680 It's by L Compilers, is what it says at the bottom. 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.780 So what is that? 00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:38.460 Lcompilers.org. 00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:39.460 Yeah. 00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:41.580 Good question. 00:19:41.580 --> 00:19:43.180 It has no public members. 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:43.760 Okay. 00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:44.580 But it is exciting. 00:19:44.580 --> 00:19:46.420 So yeah, nor does it have a web page. 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:48.740 Hopefully it's not an APT crew. 00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:54.260 Anyway, no, seriously, it looks like a cool project and people can check it out. 00:19:54.260 --> 00:19:58.180 There's a lot of these ideas happening now, but yeah, it's quite interesting. 00:19:58.180 --> 00:19:58.620 Yeah. 00:19:59.600 --> 00:20:05.700 Well, my last topic was kind of dramatic with the whole XZ thing. 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:11.180 So I'd like to continue the drama and bring it into Python. 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:17.340 And with the help of Trey Hunter, and he has a way to make your Python more dramatic. 00:20:17.340 --> 00:20:22.380 Actually, your Python output more dramatic with a, I'm just kind of joking, 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:24.100 but it's kind of fun with the name. 00:20:24.100 --> 00:20:27.140 He's got a tool called Dramatic. 00:20:27.860 --> 00:20:35.340 And what it does is it slows down the print output, which, you know, why would you want this? 00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:36.440 I don't know. 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.880 It might be kind of fun if you're doing a demo or doing a presentation or something, 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.700 but it does, it's just pretty fun. 00:20:42.700 --> 00:20:44.160 There's a lot of ways you can use Dramatic. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:51.700 You can, once you install it, you can just use a context manager so that it's only around certain print statements. 00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:54.720 You can decorate certain functions. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.200 So it temporarily does it. 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:02.700 And you can even, there's a start and print that to do it targeted. 00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:07.520 One of the fun things, and he's got examples on his readme how to do this. 00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:14.620 One of the fun things you can do, I'm not sure why he included this, is you can do it outside the whole thing. 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:16.480 He's got a Dramatic interpreter. 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:22.740 So if you run like Python-M Dramatic, it just slows down everything. 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:26.600 So you can turn it off, though. 00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:28.960 He's got a way to turn it off as well. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.080 But you can do speedups and make it. 00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:33.980 Anyway, I think this is... 00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:37.120 You want your Python code to look like ChatGPT or something like that, right? 00:21:37.120 --> 00:21:39.400 Yeah, as it's typing out and stuff. 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:45.200 I think it's kind of, especially if you're running, I think it'd be useful. 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.080 He gives an example of doing it. 00:21:47.080 --> 00:21:50.160 Like, for instance, I guess this isn't an example. 00:21:50.320 --> 00:22:04.980 But if you're doing command line interface interactions with a user, I think it is helpful sometimes to have the output go slowly so that it's visually interesting to have it not just pop up with a mountain of text for people to read. 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.680 But don't do it too slow, because that's annoying also. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.160 But anyway, I think it's kind of a fun thing. 00:22:11.800 --> 00:22:14.240 Related to this, I thought it'd be... 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:29.560 When he submitted this the other day, I remembered somebody named Alan submitted a comment to us that Terminal Text Effects library is pretty cool. 00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:31.980 And so I'll go ahead and link to that also. 00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:34.420 That's a fun thing. 00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:36.060 It's very dramatic. 00:22:36.060 --> 00:22:38.260 That's quite dramatic. 00:22:38.820 --> 00:22:40.880 You've got a whole bunch of cool effects. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:46.520 There's a grid one where things show up gradually in a grid. 00:22:46.520 --> 00:22:48.500 There's a bunch of great examples. 00:22:48.500 --> 00:22:50.780 There's beams that pop back and forth. 00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:51.360 This is beautiful. 00:22:51.360 --> 00:22:52.100 Laser beams. 00:22:52.100 --> 00:22:52.880 Laser beams. 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:53.300 I like that one. 00:22:53.300 --> 00:22:54.320 Yes, let's do it. 00:22:54.320 --> 00:23:00.760 The binary path kind of looks kind of, what was it, matrix-y sort of a look. 00:23:00.760 --> 00:23:02.700 Listen, Neil, you can't go down there. 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.820 There was one that I really liked a lot. 00:23:05.820 --> 00:23:07.620 The burn is neat. 00:23:08.620 --> 00:23:09.020 Crumbles. 00:23:09.020 --> 00:23:12.040 These are all animated GIFs on the GitHub repo that Brian's thinking, too. 00:23:12.040 --> 00:23:12.260 Yeah. 00:23:12.260 --> 00:23:12.560 Yeah. 00:23:12.560 --> 00:23:17.020 So I think it'd be cool for your... 00:23:17.020 --> 00:23:18.380 I wouldn't do it all over the place. 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:21.900 But for instance, if you had a... 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:23.880 Probably not a help, but an about. 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:26.580 And that's sort of where it's showing here. 00:23:26.580 --> 00:23:31.820 Where you show the credits and who's worked on it and some more info and stuff. 00:23:31.820 --> 00:23:38.340 That'd be fun to do a fancy dramatic output for that. 00:23:38.340 --> 00:23:39.020 All right. 00:23:39.020 --> 00:23:40.860 With this terminal text effects thing. 00:23:40.860 --> 00:23:41.340 Yeah. 00:23:41.340 --> 00:23:47.660 I think if you work in the movie industry and you need to have a hacker breaking into a thing 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:52.500 or somebody jacking into cyberspace or whatever one of these weird things are, 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.280 where you're going to show a terminal and make it dramatic. 00:23:54.540 --> 00:23:55.080 Oh my goodness. 00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:56.980 You could just basically do this for Hollywood. 00:23:56.980 --> 00:23:57.600 Yeah. 00:23:57.600 --> 00:23:58.680 Yeah. 00:23:58.680 --> 00:23:59.160 Couldn't you? 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:00.400 Yeah, definitely. 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.500 What is this language? 00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:03.060 Oh my gosh. 00:24:03.060 --> 00:24:03.780 This is VB6. 00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:04.380 I know this. 00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:05.300 I'm tracking his IP. 00:24:05.300 --> 00:24:05.840 Like, wait a minute. 00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:06.100 What? 00:24:06.100 --> 00:24:07.960 What do you think about this? 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:08.840 It would be a little bit better. 00:24:08.840 --> 00:24:10.200 Yeah. 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:11.640 It'd be great. 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.200 So anyway, that'd be fun. 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:21.280 If you use both this and Textual to turn it into like a Vim clone or something like that 00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:22.800 with fun effects. 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:24.080 Ooh, that's fun. 00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:24.760 The pour is neat. 00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:25.340 Yeah. 00:24:25.340 --> 00:24:28.500 It's almost like the Tetris terminal in a sense. 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:29.360 Not quite, but almost. 00:24:29.360 --> 00:24:34.000 Anyway, I guess that is just a fun wrap up of our topics. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.260 But we have some extras. 00:24:36.260 --> 00:24:37.520 Do you have any extras? 00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:38.980 Go do your first since you got your screen up. 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:39.420 Yeah. 00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:39.740 Okay. 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:45.180 So the only thing I mentioned Textual a little bit, I'll go ahead and say that Textual 00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:46.640 has released a new version. 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:52.400 And I'm highlighting this because there's an inline feature, which is fun. 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.820 So with the inline feature, let's see if we can get an example up. 00:24:56.820 --> 00:25:02.180 You can kind of run Textual in, run? 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:03.540 It's not running for me. 00:25:03.540 --> 00:25:07.120 But anyway, you can run it inline. 00:25:07.300 --> 00:25:12.480 So normally, if you run a Textual application, it takes up your whole terminal area. 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.040 But this will just take a subset. 00:25:15.040 --> 00:25:17.800 So you can have a little input screen. 00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:19.800 So you can have kind of like an input dialogue maybe. 00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:24.100 And it's very visual, but doesn't take over everything. 00:25:24.100 --> 00:25:27.040 So anyway, kind of fun. 00:25:27.040 --> 00:25:28.980 Textual and rich, continue to impress. 00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:29.580 Yeah. 00:25:29.580 --> 00:25:30.520 How about you? 00:25:30.520 --> 00:25:31.240 Any extras? 00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:32.640 I've got a few. 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:33.940 Let's see. 00:25:33.940 --> 00:25:37.840 Let's start with broadcasts straight out of the Philippines. 00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:46.820 So my keynote, which was entitled The State of Python in 2024, I give two weeks ago at PyCon 00:25:46.820 --> 00:25:47.960 Philippines is out. 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.700 And the production quality is super high on this video. 00:25:51.820 --> 00:25:53.200 So they did a really great job. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:54.100 It was a fun conference. 00:25:54.100 --> 00:25:58.320 But if you would have loved to hear me give a presentation on The State of Python in 2024, 00:25:58.320 --> 00:26:01.780 but you weren't there, then you can still check it out now. 00:26:01.780 --> 00:26:02.180 It's awesome. 00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:06.220 And I really enjoyed it, by the way. 00:26:06.340 --> 00:26:06.500 Yeah. 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:07.040 Yeah. 00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:07.740 Oh, thanks so much. 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:12.440 A bunch of the people whose projects we talk about on this show actually get a shout out 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:12.620 there. 00:26:12.620 --> 00:26:13.320 So all right. 00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:14.600 That's thing one. 00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:16.960 Thing two, I just want to encourage people. 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.560 I've not logged in my GitHub, so I can't unfortunately show it here. 00:26:19.560 --> 00:26:24.020 But Brian, do you go to your GitHub and you know there's that feed in the middle that shows 00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:28.940 all the stuff that's going on and who starred this and who's doing that and stuff. 00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:29.800 Do you ever use that thing? 00:26:29.800 --> 00:26:30.300 No. 00:26:30.300 --> 00:26:32.200 That's the way I'm like, that's the thing's stupid. 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.340 This is like 80% of the page and it's in the way. 00:26:34.340 --> 00:26:34.840 What is this? 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.020 How do I get past this? 00:26:37.020 --> 00:26:40.460 I've started paying attention to it and I've found so many cool projects. 00:26:40.460 --> 00:26:45.120 So I want to inspire people to follow people on GitHub. 00:26:45.120 --> 00:26:47.160 You can follow Brian and me and see what we're starring. 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.060 But who's starred what? 00:26:49.060 --> 00:26:49.660 Who's forked what? 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:54.620 I found probably three or four really interesting projects just last week by just kind of skimming 00:26:54.620 --> 00:26:56.300 that for five minutes a week, you know? 00:26:56.300 --> 00:26:57.380 That's pretty cool. 00:26:57.380 --> 00:26:58.120 Yeah. 00:26:58.120 --> 00:26:59.600 I was really surprised that it was useful. 00:26:59.600 --> 00:27:01.100 I guess I need to follow more people. 00:27:01.100 --> 00:27:01.960 I don't know. 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:02.380 Exactly. 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:03.740 Because I should as well. 00:27:03.800 --> 00:27:07.480 Because I hadn't really been following more people because why do you follow them? 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:08.560 Well, maybe this is why. 00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:13.280 On to the thing that continues to perplex me, which is interesting, is that the official 00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:16.560 way that Python works is through blogspot.com. 00:27:16.560 --> 00:27:19.060 But nonetheless, important stuff for you all. 00:27:19.320 --> 00:27:27.400 If you are living in the past, like when I ran JustPath earlier, it said your Python 310 thing is stupid because that doesn't exist on your computer anymore. 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:35.020 But if you have 310, 3.9 or 3.8, there are security updates for the older versions of Python, but not the new one. 00:27:35.020 --> 00:27:37.060 They call them boring security releases. 00:27:37.060 --> 00:27:39.340 I never think of security releases as boring. 00:27:40.100 --> 00:27:47.880 They either go from slightly interesting to, oh my gosh, you have my full attention, like the XZ thing. 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:55.080 Anyway, people can check that out and should probably upgrade if they're running one of those versions, 310, 3.9 or 3.8. 00:27:55.080 --> 00:27:58.960 And if you're running 3.7 or older, too bad, so sad, no updates for you. 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.160 They may be vulnerable. 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:00.940 They may be not. 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:01.580 I don't know. 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.580 And that's just the way it works if you're out of support. 00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:06.520 That's why you should stay on some of the new stuff somewhat. 00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:09.920 Like the new stuff's really been fairly easy to upgrade to. 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:10.380 I haven't. 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:11.140 It has been. 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:16.160 In a lot of, most of the, well, maybe it's just my projects, but I haven't run into any issues really. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:21.700 I think if you stay one version behind, it's, it's, there's no effort at all almost to do it. 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:31.800 Going from 3.11 to 3.12 was actually the hardest upgrade I've ever done because there was quite a few dependencies I had that use something that was removed as part of the dead batteries thing. 00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:32.960 Or something like that. 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.800 And I can't, and it just wouldn't run. 00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:42.000 And I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to, I was just waiting until some dependency of a dependency got fixed, but it was slow for some reason. 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:42.760 I don't know why. 00:28:42.760 --> 00:28:45.120 But, you know, that got fixed within a few weeks, right? 00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:47.300 So if you waited a little bit longer, it should be easy. 00:28:47.300 --> 00:28:48.240 Yeah. 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:55.520 So one of the questions I got while we're looking at this, how many, I used to run a lot of versions of Python on my, on my Mac. 00:28:55.520 --> 00:29:01.340 But I got a new Mac recently and I decided to mostly push most, I only run a couple. 00:29:01.600 --> 00:29:07.360 And then I push, do most of my multi Python version testing in CI instead of locally. 00:29:07.360 --> 00:29:10.760 How many do you have on your machine or regularly? 00:29:10.760 --> 00:29:11.220 Or do you? 00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:12.640 Let's see. 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.040 Which Python? 00:29:14.040 --> 00:29:14.920 Oh, we're here. 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:15.560 Python rather. 00:29:15.560 --> 00:29:16.160 I think. 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:16.840 Oh. 00:29:17.320 --> 00:29:18.700 I'm sorry to put you on the spot. 00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:19.320 No problem. 00:29:19.320 --> 00:29:25.140 You know, I think I have, I think I have three 11 and three 12 and that's it. 00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:26.060 Yeah. 00:29:26.060 --> 00:29:28.860 I think that I don't have three nine. 00:29:28.860 --> 00:29:29.740 I don't have three 10. 00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:31.240 I definitely don't have anything else. 00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.400 So three 11 or three 11 or three 12. 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:35.660 Those are the ones that I got right now. 00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:36.520 So I'm with you. 00:29:36.560 --> 00:29:38.560 I tried to, I did not put too much stuff on there. 00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:42.720 The only reason I really have older stuff on there is because I haven't gone to the trouble 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.500 of removing it because there's so a bunch of virtual environments I've created off it that 00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:47.580 I wanted to deal with. 00:29:47.580 --> 00:29:49.380 But ideally I would just have the latest. 00:29:49.380 --> 00:29:50.080 Yeah. 00:29:50.120 --> 00:29:55.000 I think, I think my normal, I don't know what I've got, but it's, it's the, well, with 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.560 the packages I maintain, I usually have the newest and the oldest that I maintain. 00:29:59.560 --> 00:30:03.700 And so three 12 and then however far back I wanted to go. 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:04.060 Yeah. 00:30:04.060 --> 00:30:09.260 And then so that, so that talks can find those and I can find those locally, but yeah. 00:30:09.260 --> 00:30:09.520 Yeah. 00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:10.500 You know what I might do? 00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:16.460 I'm not doing it because I don't have a huge set of older pythons I test for. 00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:19.000 But if I was like you where I did that, maybe I'd have Docker. 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.420 We have some Docker container, so older ones, you could just do Docker run Python, this 00:30:23.420 --> 00:30:24.880 command, you know, this file or whatever. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.440 I don't know. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.160 Yeah, maybe. 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:27.440 Keep it cleaned up. 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:30.280 Yeah, but they run side by side pretty well. 00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:30.680 So. 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:31.600 Yeah, they do. 00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:32.100 Anyway. 00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:33.580 Just got to keep your path in order. 00:30:33.580 --> 00:30:34.260 So just path. 00:30:34.260 --> 00:30:35.100 Just path. 00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:35.840 Just path. 00:30:35.840 --> 00:30:36.840 Just Jack. 00:30:36.840 --> 00:30:41.020 So should we have some fun, something funny? 00:30:41.020 --> 00:30:42.120 Ah, yes. 00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:45.360 This one, actually I got it pulled up, but this one is from you. 00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:48.100 So I'm going to let you take the lead on telling us about this joke here. 00:30:48.100 --> 00:30:48.740 Okay. 00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:51.760 So I saw this on LinkedIn, actually. 00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:53.500 It's from Matt Watson. 00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:54.360 Don't know him. 00:30:54.360 --> 00:30:56.620 But it's pretty funny. 00:30:56.620 --> 00:31:01.620 So we've got some definitions of some software definitions for you. 00:31:01.620 --> 00:31:04.100 So starting, I've got a whole bunch of them. 00:31:04.100 --> 00:31:05.200 So we'll try to go through them. 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:06.380 Technical debt. 00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:09.380 What technical debt is move fast and don't fix things. 00:31:09.380 --> 00:31:13.400 Agile development is admitting you have no plan. 00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:17.100 Test driven development, guessing the future one test at a time. 00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:18.580 I love that. 00:31:18.580 --> 00:31:21.800 Open source is asking somebody else to fix it. 00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:22.680 Yeah. 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:24.060 It's not always working. 00:31:24.060 --> 00:31:29.080 Maybe a slightly different term based on the topic I said this week. 00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:31.760 Running someone else's code from the internet. 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:32.980 Yeah. 00:31:32.980 --> 00:31:33.040 Right. 00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:33.100 Yeah. 00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:33.500 Right. 00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:34.220 Right. 00:31:34.220 --> 00:31:37.780 So CICD, automating your mistakes into production. 00:31:37.780 --> 00:31:39.300 That's awesome. 00:31:39.300 --> 00:31:41.980 API is also asking somebody else to do it. 00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:42.480 DevOps. 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:43.220 I love this. 00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.120 DevOps is the belief that more tools fix any problem. 00:31:47.540 --> 00:31:51.140 Microservices are creating enough small problems to avoid one big one. 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:53.860 Cyber security is playing hide and seek with hackers. 00:31:53.860 --> 00:31:58.320 And serverless is pretending servers don't exist until the bill comes. 00:31:58.320 --> 00:31:59.200 Oh, yeah. 00:31:59.200 --> 00:31:59.620 Scrum. 00:31:59.620 --> 00:32:00.400 I like that. 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:03.560 Scrum is group therapy for being behind schedule. 00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:06.040 Nice. 00:32:06.040 --> 00:32:07.240 Hi. 00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:08.000 My name is Michael. 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.040 I'm blocked. 00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:11.540 Hi, Michael. 00:32:11.540 --> 00:32:15.720 I've been blocked for two months. 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:18.160 Yeah. 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.000 That's great. 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:19.220 Yeah. 00:32:19.220 --> 00:32:22.120 We have to do that. 00:32:22.120 --> 00:32:24.920 Next, I'll have to try to incorporate that. 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:25.580 There you go. 00:32:25.580 --> 00:32:27.060 Thanks, Brian. 00:32:27.060 --> 00:32:28.380 Well, thanks a lot. 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:30.020 Thanks again for a wonderful episode. 00:32:30.020 --> 00:32:34.600 And thank you, everybody, for helping to make Python Bytes a wonderful podcast. 00:32:34.600 --> 00:32:41.200 And we don't ask this much, but if you find this amusing or helpful, please share with a friend. 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:46.260 And you can sign up for one of the great ways to do that is to sign up as a friend of the show. 00:32:46.580 --> 00:32:48.540 Get the newsletter, and then you can send that. 00:32:48.540 --> 00:32:49.900 You can spam your friends with that. 00:32:49.900 --> 00:32:52.080 We're not going to spam people, but you can. 00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:53.040 So thanks. 00:32:53.040 --> 00:32:53.640 Indeed. 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:54.120 Yeah.