WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:04.500 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:09.060 This is episode 425, recorded March 24th, 2025. 00:00:09.890 --> 00:00:10.700 I am Brian Okken. 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.660 And I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:12.040 --> 00:00:15.520 We are excited to announce that this episode is brought to you by Posit Connect. 00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:17.720 Listen to their segment later in the show. 00:00:18.360 --> 00:00:19.680 You can also connect with us. 00:00:20.750 --> 00:00:27.680 And if you go to our show notes and visit all the links, we're on Bluesky and Mastodon mostly lately. 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:38.000 And if you'd like to actually thank you for listening, but also if you'd like to watch us live, you can check us out at pythonbytes.fm/live. 00:00:38.540 --> 00:00:43.200 Usually Mondays at 10 a.m., but it's spring break this week, so we're doing it a little early. 00:00:43.980 --> 00:00:55.780 And then finally, if you'd like to have all the links that we talked about delivered plus extra information delivered right to your inbox, go to pythonbytes.fm and sign up for the newsletter. 00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:56.960 We don't spam you. 00:00:57.050 --> 00:00:58.220 We just send you the newsletter. 00:00:58.580 --> 00:00:59.220 What 00:00:59.220 --> 00:00:59.900 do you got for us 00:00:59.900 --> 00:01:00.700 today, Michael? 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:05.700 I want to kick off with a Twitter thread of all things. 00:01:06.260 --> 00:01:07.780 And this one's pretty interesting. 00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:13.400 So Armin Roeneker, original creator of Flask, put out a question. 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:19.580 And it got a lot more attention than I would imagine it justified. 00:01:20.580 --> 00:01:22.580 And I found it so simple. 00:01:23.100 --> 00:01:25.080 And I just found it pretty interesting. 00:01:25.380 --> 00:01:25.620 Okay. 00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:31.340 The question is, if you use Python, but you don't use uv, why? 00:01:31.740 --> 00:01:32.760 You don't use it yet, why? 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:33.260 Right? 00:01:33.340 --> 00:01:37.940 So I got like 215 responses, almost 1,000 likes, things like that. 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:45.120 So I want to just call out some of, I'm not going to go read all 215 top level. 00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:47.720 He says, I'm going to call out some of the ones that I thought were interesting. 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.760 And just get your thoughts, Brian, as well. 00:01:51.080 --> 00:01:55.380 So for example, someone said, I'm not going to also give attributes because there's a bunch. 00:01:55.600 --> 00:02:02.420 take forever. So someone said, I get it replaces pip in pi e and v, but should I use it instead of 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:11.020 the built-in Python dash m v and v, v and v, right? Yes. Yes, you should. Yes, yes, you should also 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:16.480 do that. The reason I'm calling this out, the reason I'm making this a topic is there were a 00:02:16.540 --> 00:02:22.539 lot of, I think a lot of misconceptions or a lot of people are like, what's UV? So I think those 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:28.200 are worth touching on. So what are the awesome things about using uv, V, E, and V instead of 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:35.000 Python, V, E, and V is, well, what if you don't have Python? Python, V, and V will just say error, 00:02:35.160 --> 00:02:40.660 no Python, right? uv says, oh, well, why don't we just get you the latest version of Python? Or you 00:02:40.660 --> 00:02:47.640 can say 3.12 or 3.11 or whatever version you want, or a specific minor version, right? Or build version, 00:02:47.740 --> 00:02:55.100 right? 3.13.1 instead of 3.13.2, whatever, right? So it frees you from even having to worry about 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.780 having Python set up. I got two new computers, Brian, two new computers. I got a new laptop and 00:02:59.780 --> 00:03:05.520 a new Mac mini, and I have not installed Python on it. And I'm actually was a little bit bugged 00:03:05.900 --> 00:03:12.040 when something I had to brew install installed Python. I'm like, darn it, you're messing up my 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.959 flow, right? I don't want any Python in here other than virtual environments. And I want those to be 00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:23.500 managed by uv. And the thing is, it's two seconds. Like with Pi, E, and V, what it does is it 00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:28.440 downloads and it builds locally, which if you don't have it can take 10 minutes or more. With uv, 00:03:28.570 --> 00:03:31.100 it takes two seconds, right? It's a thing of beauty. 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.600 Well, I just ran into the build, 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:39.960 a problem with the build recently, because if the, there's issues, especially on Windows, 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:46.059 when if you've got your dependencies mucked up somehow, it can cause you to have to recompile 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.720 some stuff and or try to recompile some stuff and and then you have to make sure they have the right 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:56.600 like compiler libraries on your computer and stuff like that so that's a mess. 00:03:57.320 --> 00:03:59.040 Someone says but I need Python 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:00.020 installed to make 00:04:00.020 --> 00:04:02.240 Python programs. I don't know yes but 00:04:02.570 --> 00:04:08.720 oh it's the previous comment. But I mean it is installing it using uv to install like it isn't 00:04:08.980 --> 00:04:14.360 installing it like you normally think but behind the scenes uv is putting it on your computer. 00:04:14.860 --> 00:04:15.180 This 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:39.340 is an interesting one. I want to hear your thoughts on this. I'm anti this only because of my workflow, not against the person who made the comment. Because I don't use it because it places the VE and V folder inside of your project. And I can't run executables from there due to corporate policy. Many such use cases. No idea why Astral doesn't address this with more urgency. Someone responded, that sounds like a bad corporate policy. 00:04:39.640 --> 00:04:41.760 Also, it does. You can configure it to do that. 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.840 Yeah, exactly. There's an environment variable you can set, have it, put it in somewhere else. 00:04:46.400 --> 00:05:01.180 Now, one of the things that made me never, ever adopt Conda is if you would go and create a Conda environment for a data science project, it puts it into some hidden folder, centralized hidden folder inside of your profile instead of inside your project. 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:07.920 So I would go to a project and I'm like, did I, you know, a couple of months later and be like, did I ever make a virtual environment for this? Maybe. 00:05:08.400 --> 00:05:09.100 But then you got to say, 00:05:09.520 --> 00:05:11.680 Conda activate and name the virtual environment. 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:13.120 I'm like, what did I call it? 00:05:13.390 --> 00:05:13.880 You know what I mean? 00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:15.500 They're like, oh, drives me crazy. 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.580 And with it being inside the project folder, 00:05:17.670 --> 00:05:19.660 you can look, go, yep, there's a virtual environment there. 00:05:19.960 --> 00:05:20.480 I'm good to go. 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.860 Same reason that I don't like calling mine.vnv. 00:05:24.070 --> 00:05:25.300 I just leave it without the dot 00:05:25.640 --> 00:05:27.900 because I can quickly see in the finder 00:05:28.300 --> 00:05:30.520 or a regular LS or whatever that, 00:05:30.710 --> 00:05:32.700 hey, look, it does have a virtual environment. 00:05:33.400 --> 00:05:33.600 All right. 00:05:33.900 --> 00:05:36.900 I'm too lazy to switch from Py, Env, and Pip. 00:05:37.400 --> 00:05:38.820 It seems like a U problem. 00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:42.820 There's lazy, like, I'm not going to walk two miles to the store. 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:49.380 And then there's, I can't be bothered to put the word uv space pip instead of pip in my command. 00:05:50.440 --> 00:05:52.940 Well, and like, I'm lazy. 00:05:53.140 --> 00:05:59.420 That's why I am using uv because it speeds up everything and I can get on with my day faster. 00:05:59.740 --> 00:05:59.980 Yeah. 00:06:00.440 --> 00:06:06.280 Matthew Rocklin of Dask and Coiled had a really interesting comment once on Talk Python that basically like, 00:06:06.520 --> 00:06:12.180 So much in programming happens because we're leveraging the natural inclination for programmers to be lazy. 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:15.680 Set it up so they can do this, so they have to do less work, and we'll do it. 00:06:15.980 --> 00:06:16.160 All right. 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:18.020 I'll keep going quicker now. 00:06:18.380 --> 00:06:19.000 Trust issues. 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:20.640 What if they do a bait and switch, right? 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:21.620 It's VC-backed. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:23.000 What if they go, oh, all of a sudden? 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:24.300 Two comments there. 00:06:24.580 --> 00:06:27.500 One, it's open source, and I'm sure a lot of people have forked it. 00:06:27.710 --> 00:06:30.440 Two, although there are still some potential issues, 00:06:30.700 --> 00:06:35.200 somebody's got to run the Python Build standalone for some of the features, but there's that. 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:38.540 And they've already said that they won't, right? 00:06:38.820 --> 00:06:43.160 Charlie Marsh said, like, our business model does not hinge upon charging for uv. 00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:45.620 It's kind of an open core model. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.480 Okay, but Google used to say, don't be evil. 00:06:49.020 --> 00:06:49.640 So, yeah. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.460 Yeah, but Brian, I totally hear you. 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.540 But did you look, when they said it, like, around their back, they had their fingers crossed. 00:06:57.700 --> 00:06:59.940 Look, I'm just telling you, you got to double check these things. 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:01.260 No, I'm just kidding. 00:07:01.460 --> 00:07:01.980 I know they did. 00:07:02.080 --> 00:07:09.400 Actually, yeah, when VCs get involved and it's all well and good when there's lots of money and things get tight, then it could potentially. 00:07:09.430 --> 00:07:10.120 Well, and also we'll 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:11.240 switch to something else then. 00:07:11.900 --> 00:07:15.260 We'll switch to uv fairly quickly if it becomes bad. 00:07:15.420 --> 00:07:15.780 We'll switch. 00:07:15.780 --> 00:07:16.760 Yeah, we'll switch to VU. 00:07:17.260 --> 00:07:19.140 So I have a reason, 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:21.020 but when you run out of good reasons. 00:07:21.620 --> 00:07:21.840 All right. 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:23.040 Another one, masochism. 00:07:23.250 --> 00:07:25.500 I haven't switched yet because I'm masochistic. 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:27.040 Another one. 00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:32.540 Many times I've tried similar tools and always come back to pip and pip-tools, aka pip compile. 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:33.860 Those, they just work. 00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:35.200 I don't want something cool. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:40.460 I know, but adding the word uv in front of each of these commands, like uv pip compile, 00:07:40.760 --> 00:07:44.240 UV pip install, it's not a huge risk to roll that back. 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:48.460 Yeah, and we've tried the other ones also, and they were not as fun. 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:49.020 Exactly. 00:07:49.900 --> 00:07:54.000 I tried this week and was expecting uv install requests instead of uv add. 00:07:54.460 --> 00:07:55.360 And I brought this one up. 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:56.780 I switched back to pip envy. 00:07:56.840 --> 00:08:01.080 I thought that was interesting because there's sort of two workflows with uv. 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.840 One says, treat it like poetry or hatch and let it manage your project. 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:08.560 And that's the uv add style, right? 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:10.280 It manages the lock file and so on. 00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:12.320 They were expecting uv install requests. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:17.540 If they typed uv pip install requests, they would have been carrying on with the regular workflow. 00:08:17.620 --> 00:08:23.700 And I do think it's worth shouting out that there's like two unrelated workflows for projects. 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:28.300 And one is sort of the project manager poetry hatch style. 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.440 And one is the more low level pip style. 00:08:31.820 --> 00:08:32.080 Yeah. 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:33.219 Yeah. 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:34.560 Okay. 00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:39.919 But the uv is like you can kind of flow between the styles and it all just works. 00:08:40.260 --> 00:08:45.140 Whereas in the other one, like you kind of had to buy into it or not. 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:45.960 Yeah. 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:46.820 It's all or nothing. 00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:47.060 Yeah. 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:48.200 Another one really quick. 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:49.140 We partially use it. 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.340 We will transition when Pindabot support is available. 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:53.600 See previous comment. 00:08:53.820 --> 00:09:01.540 If you say uv pip install and uv pip compile and use a requirements.txt file compiled by uv, you've got Dependabot support. 00:09:02.020 --> 00:09:05.160 For me, Dependabot support is a net negative. 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:06.840 I hate Dependabot so much. 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:13.380 I've tried to turn it off on some of my projects and I can't get it turned off without turning off all the security features at GitHub. 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:18.740 So I've just had to set up mail rules that say delete anything from Dependabot that says bump. 00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:19.620 Bump this thing. 00:09:19.940 --> 00:09:26.400 Because I would wake up on Monday and I'd have probably 25, 30 separate messages from Dependabot saying, 00:09:26.730 --> 00:09:27.180 hey, guess what? 00:09:27.280 --> 00:09:28.220 You've got an update for this. 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:29.100 You've got an update for that. 00:09:29.310 --> 00:09:29.600 I'm like, 00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:31.820 oh, Dependabot, please stop doing this. 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:34.520 And if they would just go, your project has 17 updates. 00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:35.220 Okay. 00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:36.660 That would be kind of helpful. 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:39.280 17 times your project has an update is not helpful. 00:09:39.760 --> 00:09:44.960 That said, if you use uv space pip compile and require it's not TXC, you have Dependabot support. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:45.580 All right. 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:47.600 Last thought, I'll leave it with this one from Jared Sheel. 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:50.980 seeing a whole lot of Stockholm syndrome in the replies to this question. 00:09:51.880 --> 00:09:52.200 Okay. 00:09:52.800 --> 00:09:52.960 Interesting. 00:09:53.620 --> 00:09:54.040 A lot 00:09:54.040 --> 00:09:56.340 of people were sort of, you know, 00:09:56.420 --> 00:10:00.220 they were tied to the things that were not working well or they were tied to the things. 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:01.220 Well, this is how we do it. 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:02.280 And I know it sucks. 00:10:02.540 --> 00:10:04.200 It's not better, but this is how we do it. 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:04.980 You know what I mean? 00:10:05.260 --> 00:10:05.460 Yeah. 00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:06.080 Yeah. 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:12.420 The one thing that I would like to, okay, there's a reason that you really get a lot of the benefit of UV 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:14.400 if you globally install it. 00:10:14.400 --> 00:10:16.200 You do the curl install or something, right? 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:23.720 That is, and also using, letting it install Python for you. 00:10:24.620 --> 00:10:33.180 With all the other Python dependencies, you can use your own custom, like a custom PyPI, like your own in-house PyPI. 00:10:34.040 --> 00:10:42.160 With that part, the curl install and the installing the binaries, Python binaries, I don't know if you can do that. 00:10:42.220 --> 00:10:50.780 So I think that that still might be a decent reason is because you're using a firewall in a company and that part isn't working right. 00:10:51.290 --> 00:10:59.380 But you can still pip install uv and I have done time tests and it's still faster to use the use uv even if you pip install it. 00:10:59.450 --> 00:11:00.320 So you 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:01.240 just don't get all the benefits. 00:11:01.760 --> 00:11:02.300 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:02.740 Awesome. 00:11:03.540 --> 00:11:03.600 Yeah. 00:11:03.780 --> 00:11:04.940 Anyway, you got to already have a project. 00:11:05.050 --> 00:11:05.880 You can't start. 00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:06.700 You got to have Python. 00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:08.960 You got to have a V and V and then then you go from there. 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:09.480 Yeah. 00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:10.100 Anyway. 00:11:10.400 --> 00:11:12.560 Which is fine because mostly that's what you're doing with life. 00:11:12.760 --> 00:11:14.000 You're not like constantly creating a project. 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:15.480 I love our audience. 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:16.720 Henry Schreiner. 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:17.340 Hey, Henry. 00:11:17.780 --> 00:11:21.680 Just shouted out, Dependabot just added support last week for uv lock. 00:11:22.260 --> 00:11:22.580 How about that? 00:11:23.019 --> 00:11:25.460 Do you know how out of date that Twitter thread is? 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:26.400 So last week. 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:27.980 So last week. 00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:33.540 Well, and also a lot of the knowledgeable people probably didn't respond because it's on X. 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:35.200 Yeah, that's true. 00:11:35.260 --> 00:11:40.500 Well, I mean, there's a surprising amount of interaction over there for what it is. 00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:40.960 Okay. 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:41.580 Over to you. 00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:42.180 Okay. 00:11:43.280 --> 00:11:44.740 Let's talk about uv a little bit. 00:11:46.660 --> 00:11:46.860 Okay. 00:11:46.920 --> 00:11:47.420 We haven't done 00:11:47.420 --> 00:11:47.740 that yet. 00:11:49.819 --> 00:11:53.520 So I want to talk about this cool project from Tim Hopper. 00:11:54.280 --> 00:11:54.740 I love Tim. 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:56.400 I kind of miss seeing him. 00:11:57.100 --> 00:12:01.880 He's one of the fellows that I used to run into at conferences all the time and haven't been to conferences lately. 00:12:02.140 --> 00:12:02.940 So hi, Tim. 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.460 Anyway, he put out the Python developer tooling handbook. 00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:11.760 And it's an in-progress thing, but he's been working on it for a while. 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:14.560 Yeah, Tim Hopper, great guy. 00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:18.700 Anyway, the Python developer tooling handbook. 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:25.920 And it's walking through a lot of the, basically, the new models for doing things. 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:31.500 There's, I don't know, it says it, I guess he does comment on a lot of these things. 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.560 UV, Poetry, Flit, Subtools, Hatch. 00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:40.780 But I was noticing right away he's doing tutorials and how-tos and explanations 00:12:41.660 --> 00:12:44.320 and kind of a cool, and then some references 00:12:44.780 --> 00:12:47.340 and kind of a cool way to set up some documentation. 00:12:48.680 --> 00:12:52.320 But like, let's say publish your first Python package 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.440 or let's do a create your first Python project. 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.480 And instead of doing a lot of the history, 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.560 he's just popping to you to the right answer. 00:13:01.160 --> 00:13:02.340 It's UVANet. 00:13:03.180 --> 00:13:09.860 And I mean, actually, a lot of the other init, like initializing projects, I haven't liked 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:10.100 before. 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:12.700 Even like the FLIT init, I didn't like. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:14.880 But UVANet is pretty darn good. 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:16.900 They're doing a good job. 00:13:17.460 --> 00:13:20.920 And anyway, so using and then adding dependencies. 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:25.720 And I love this, like, let's skip all the, well, you could do it nine different ways. 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:27.320 Just tell me the way to do it. 00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:28.940 Or at least a way. 00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:31.500 It's opinionated, but it's a good opinion. 00:13:32.800 --> 00:13:36.380 And publishing your first package, talking about setting it up. 00:13:36.640 --> 00:13:37.680 Anyway, a cool resource. 00:13:38.060 --> 00:13:39.920 I hope to see it grow a lot. 00:13:41.020 --> 00:13:42.760 So anyway, I like it. 00:13:42.900 --> 00:13:44.340 It encourages people to test. 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:48.240 It encourages people to use TestPyPI first before they go somewhere else. 00:13:49.140 --> 00:13:54.140 Although be careful because there's a lot of projects that don't use TestPyPI, 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:56.940 and they clean that one out every once in a while. 00:13:57.040 --> 00:13:59.820 So even if a package is available 00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:04.260 on the test PyPI, it might not be available on the big PyPI. 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:05.460 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:05.900 --> 00:14:08.980 So you're like, oh, it uploaded, so that means there's no name conflict. 00:14:09.330 --> 00:14:10.000 Like, no, no, no. 00:14:11.140 --> 00:14:12.020 Search PyPI. 00:14:12.380 --> 00:14:12.480 Yeah. 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.860 But one of the things I wanted to bring up also is, let's see, right at the top. 00:14:18.380 --> 00:14:21.860 It says, this is not a book about programming Python. 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:29.280 Instead, the goal of this book is to help you understand the ecosystem of tools used to make Python development easier and more productive. 00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:30.540 So it's going to grow. 00:14:31.230 --> 00:14:37.160 I commented about some of the testing already, and he said he's going to add some stuff about testing as well. 00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:46.320 He said the handbook is structured according to the DIA taxes framework, which, okay, didn't know anything about this. 00:14:46.520 --> 00:14:48.300 Tutorial, how to, explanation, and reference. 00:14:48.420 --> 00:14:54.080 So I'm not going to link to it, but there's a link here on his project about it. 00:14:54.300 --> 00:14:56.120 And I'm going to have to read more about this. 00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:56.780 This is interesting. 00:14:57.160 --> 00:14:58.000 I've never heard about this. 00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:00.040 I had not heard of it either, but it does look interesting. 00:15:00.380 --> 00:15:07.220 Anyway, and some great information about setting up Ruff to check your code and things like that. 00:15:07.520 --> 00:15:16.580 So I've been so excited about UVV and V and UVPIP and stuff like that that I kind of forget that I'm using Ruff all the time also. 00:15:17.260 --> 00:15:19.340 And it's kind of bundled into there. 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:19.840 So 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:20.640 I'm 00:15:20.640 --> 00:15:31.180 curious, while we're talking, like kind of transition to rough for a second, I was listening to that interview you did recently where you were talking about, I think you interviewed Charlie recently. 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:37.860 And I, there's, I like, I like how detailed rough can be. 00:15:38.410 --> 00:15:46.760 But this is one of the things that I think I'm, I'm, rough can you can go in the PyProjectTML or there's roughTML also now. 00:15:47.380 --> 00:15:52.800 and I kind of like, I think I might transition to using the ruff.toml or try to 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:58.080 because I end up having like a decent amount of tweaking the rules a little bit 00:15:58.140 --> 00:15:59.580 and I'm not really tweaking the project. 00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:00.060 I'm just 00:16:00.060 --> 00:16:01.980 tweaking the linting rules. 00:16:02.380 --> 00:16:06.340 So are you using, do you use rough and where do you put your rules? 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:08.640 I love rough and I'm all about the rough.toml. 00:16:08.860 --> 00:16:13.280 Yeah, it definitely takes more than a page of small font on my screen. 00:16:13.760 --> 00:16:14.040 Okay. 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:20.260 I don't want to, you know, you could reasonably have a PyProject.toml that's smaller than the ruff.toml. 00:16:20.640 --> 00:16:21.720 So, you know, I don't want to put those together. 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:29.680 Yeah, and I loved Charlie's comment about the rules of even he doesn't turn them all on. 00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:30.400 That would be silly. 00:16:31.460 --> 00:16:32.080 So I tried it. 00:16:32.270 --> 00:16:33.600 I tried turning all the rules on. 00:16:34.380 --> 00:16:36.620 And there's some rules that are inconsistent. 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:39.740 There's like two or three rules that are conflict with other rules. 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.900 So you have to decide, you know, if you turn them all on, there's actually a built-in conflict. 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:45.740 because a couple of the rules are conflict. 00:16:45.900 --> 00:16:48.560 But it gives you really great detailed information about how 00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:50.280 to fix it. 00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:55.120 Yeah, another benefit from using a rough TOML over pyproject.toml 00:16:55.460 --> 00:17:01.260 is if you're using Docker or basically any continuous integration style thing 00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:04.400 where it looks at, well, if any of the source files change, 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:08.939 I need to rebuild or redeploy, restart your web apps, your APIs or whatever. 00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:15.420 you can make changes to your ruff.toml and having if you exclude that with like a docker ignore for 00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:19.860 example okay then you rebuild it it'll say yep there's no changes right unless those changes 00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:25.240 are like real code changes so i know it's not a huge deal but that's like a plus one in the column 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:26.280 of separating those things 00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:27.000 yeah 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.540 so if you're just doing a handful of rules it might be fine in your 00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:38.299 pyproject.toml but if you're experimenting with turning on more and more um uh rules um then uh 00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:39.960 yeah, putting it separate. 00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:46.640 I do, it's both surprising and cool that by default not all of them are on, 00:17:46.820 --> 00:17:49.420 because a lot of linters in the past, they defaulted to all on, 00:17:49.860 --> 00:17:53.080 and you'd try to use the tool and it would just like blow up with errors. 00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:55.800 But rough does not. 00:17:57.220 --> 00:18:00.020 It's got some good standard ones and then you have to go 00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:00.640 turn them on. 00:18:01.100 --> 00:18:01.160 So 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:01.660 anyway. 00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:02.420 Yep. 00:18:02.730 --> 00:18:07.420 One more piece I saw in the tool book here that it was being added with a uv ad. 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:17.880 I put rough into my system using uv toolinstall ruff because just globally and then have a ruff.toml for each project to configure it. 00:18:18.090 --> 00:18:22.660 So that way you don't have to have updates to your project or make sure you remember and install. 00:18:22.820 --> 00:18:24.860 It's just like a globally available tool. 00:18:25.620 --> 00:18:25.700 Yeah. 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:26.080 Yeah. 00:18:26.360 --> 00:18:27.080 I should do that. 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:28.100 I don't know why I don't. 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:31.000 Anyway. 00:18:31.800 --> 00:18:36.280 Well, should we talk about the wonderful people at Posit that are helping us today? 00:18:36.620 --> 00:18:37.040 Absolutely. 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:44.380 Okay. This episode of Python Bytes is brought to you by the folks at Posit. Posit has made a huge 00:18:44.600 --> 00:18:49.200 investment in the Python community lately. Known originally for RStudio, they have been building 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:55.380 out a suite of tools and services for Team Python. Today, I want to focus on hosting your Python-based 00:18:55.860 --> 00:19:01.959 data science workloads. 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Let Posit Connect handle 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:01.980 the delivery and DevOps 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:04.420 including you're involved 00:20:04.770 --> 00:20:05.700 in sharing your work. 00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:07.480 You focus on what you do best. 00:20:07.810 --> 00:20:10.060 So if you work on a data science team, 00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:12.200 you owe it to you and your org 00:20:12.270 --> 00:20:13.380 to check out Posit Connect. 00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:16.680 Visit pythonbytes.fm/connect today 00:20:17.010 --> 00:20:19.500 and get a three-month free trial 00:20:20.060 --> 00:20:21.000 to see if it's a good fit. 00:20:21.320 --> 00:20:23.300 That's pythonbytes.fm/connect. 00:20:23.860 --> 00:20:26.520 The link is in your podcast player's show notes. 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:29.560 Thank you to Posit for supporting Python Bytes. 00:20:29.800 --> 00:20:30.080 Absolutely. 00:20:30.560 --> 00:20:49.080 Thank you, Posit. That's sort of a data science theme, right, Brian? Let's go and talk about something from Adam Chains. And I know we talked about rough, but what about black? So black is still a super important, super influential thing. I imagine with black, without black, maybe rough doesn't exist. 00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:54.500 So I want to come up, I want to point out a tool called Blacken Docs. 00:20:55.120 --> 00:21:03.860 So if you have documentation, and in that documentation, maybe you've got some code blocks, some Python code blocks, and you would like to format them. 00:21:04.300 --> 00:21:10.840 I don't know how well your Markdown Editor formats code, but I'll tell you what, I love my Markdown Editor, which is TypeHora. 00:21:11.180 --> 00:21:19.780 It does not have a reformat according to rough style feature whenever I say tick, tick, tick, Python, hype and stuff, right? 00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:20.500 This does. 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.120 And so you can run this against all sorts of different things. 00:21:24.260 --> 00:21:25.280 So it says documentation. 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:33.060 But if you look at it, what it will do is it works on restructured text or it works on markdown files. 00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:33.760 Okay. 00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:40.920 For example, I'm working on that Python in production book from Talk Python, which is like 250 pages of markdown. 00:21:41.300 --> 00:21:45.020 There's a crap ton of tick, tick, tick Python, something or other in there. 00:21:45.300 --> 00:21:46.140 Oh, yeah. 00:21:46.540 --> 00:21:47.660 I could run it against that. 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:48.940 It doesn't have to be documentation. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:57.900 Anything that's restructured text or markdown that has Python code, you know, full size code block sections, you can just hit it with that. 00:21:58.220 --> 00:21:58.600 Oh, cool. 00:21:59.100 --> 00:21:59.600 That's cool, right? 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:00.100 Yeah. 00:22:00.800 --> 00:22:03.560 You can also install a pre-commit hook. 00:22:03.580 --> 00:22:04.320 It comes with one. 00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:08.400 And then when anybody commits, it'll automatically format that. 00:22:08.560 --> 00:22:10.540 And I think, does it do doc strings as well? 00:22:10.820 --> 00:22:11.320 Let's see. 00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:17.720 I believe, yeah, you can run it on Python files to reformat doc strings. 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:18.040 Yeah. 00:22:18.340 --> 00:22:21.620 So doc strings and basically markdown and restructure text. 00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:22.540 That's pretty awesome, right? 00:22:22.860 --> 00:22:23.060 Yeah. 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:23.600 So 00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:24.380 there 00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:24.620 you go. 00:22:24.620 --> 00:22:27.940 You can even turn it off with some comments like, no, please don't do it here. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:29.080 And so on. 00:22:29.320 --> 00:22:30.020 So just to 00:22:30.020 --> 00:22:34.040 be clear, I mean, it's probably obvious, but it's not, it's not, it's, it's 00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:38.780 formatting the code blocks within your Markdown files to black style. 00:22:38.860 --> 00:22:40.960 There aren't black styles for Markdown. 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:41.680 Yes, exactly. 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:42.360 Okay. 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.540 Although that's an interesting idea as well. 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:49.240 I actually wouldn't mind a, something like black for Markdown because it drives me, 00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:56.380 I, I do headings with the pound and pound, pound and, and, but Markdown allows the underscore, 00:22:56.660 --> 00:22:59.620 the dashed line line underneath it. 00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:00.040 And 00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:00.940 I hate that. 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:01.480 Trust me. 00:23:01.540 --> 00:23:01.940 I do too. 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:03.960 It's like somebody came from a structured text 00:23:04.060 --> 00:23:05.100 and stuck it in there. 00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:07.460 So let's make it easier to convert our restructured text. 00:23:07.820 --> 00:23:08.200 No. 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:09.620 No, please don't do that. 00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:12.320 We're here because we don't like structured text. 00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:13.660 Don't you understand what's happening? 00:23:15.520 --> 00:23:15.760 All right. 00:23:15.760 --> 00:23:17.660 Well, anyway, thanks, Adam, for that. 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:18.820 That's a cool looking project. 00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:19.500 Yeah. 00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:24.440 I'm going to stick with some data science themes 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:26.280 a little bit longer. 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:33.120 so uh i want to talk about reinventing notebooks as reusable python programs have you heard of this 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:35.580 uh marimo marimo thing 00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:40.660 marimo yes i just had the founder of marimo on talk python okay 00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:41.080 and 00:23:41.080 --> 00:23:41.500 yeah 00:23:41.750 --> 00:23:46.000 yeah it's it's not out yet but it's been you know been recorded and available on youtube 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:46.580 okay 00:23:46.580 --> 00:23:47.040 um 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:51.239 if this is sort of interesting i'm like oh okay somebody else is reinventing 00:23:51.620 --> 00:23:58.020 notebooks or something. But this is pretty cool. So this is, what are we looking at here? What 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:04.060 we're looking at is, I'm going to pop down to some code examples, is that a notebook doesn't have to 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:09.400 look like a notebook anymore in like JSON form or something. It can look like Python, or at least 00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:15.560 with the Marimo environment. And I'm not quite sure, you probably know more than I do then. 00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.720 Can you just open these up into notebooks, 00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:22.360 or do you have to do something special to get them open? 00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:25.720 So it's a different 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:27.459 execution environment 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.120 than, say, in Jupyter Space Lab or Jupyter Space Notebook. 00:24:32.360 --> 00:24:33.080 It's a different runtime. 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:33.780 Okay. 00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:35.459 But they're real similar. 00:24:36.580 --> 00:24:37.380 Okay, got it. 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.040 But I really like that it's just Python. 00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:42.680 Well, it's not just Python code. 00:24:42.840 --> 00:24:43.800 It's extra stuff also. 00:24:44.280 --> 00:24:48.480 It looks like they add some decorators to make their environment understand what it is. 00:24:48.520 --> 00:24:58.340 Like there's app.sell and at app.sell and at app.function and probably other stuff too. 00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:01.500 But some of the benefits of this are like incredible. 00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:06.420 So some of the benefits are that you can version with Git easier. 00:25:06.980 --> 00:25:10.340 Well, you can do that with JSON too, but the diffs don't really make a lot of sense often. 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:12.800 The diffs are all over the place. 00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:14.440 You can test with pytest. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.460 And that one, I'm like, really? 00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:18.740 That's been one of the problems. 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:23.280 Because in the past, testing is kind of an issue. 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:25.680 Or at least it has been a long time ago when I tried it. 00:25:26.540 --> 00:25:27.840 Maybe they've solved it other ways. 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:33.760 But testing even with Doctest and some of the other stuff in there. 00:25:33.860 --> 00:25:35.220 Embedding SQL and Markdown. 00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:39.640 Like all the sort of stuff that you can normally do with Python, you can now still do with these. 00:25:40.660 --> 00:25:42.480 And that's just kind of cool. 00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:46.020 I wanted to check this out and try it out. 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.080 This is available for everybody to run, right? 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:50.520 Yeah, it's available for people to run. 00:25:51.050 --> 00:25:52.220 You can download it, run it locally. 00:25:52.350 --> 00:25:54.400 They also have some cloud options. 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:55.880 And it's really neat. 00:25:56.040 --> 00:25:57.960 There's super nice ways to host it. 00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:02.100 You just say run it as a service. 00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:03.640 One of the things that's pretty interesting here, 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.140 let me steal the stage for a moment, 00:26:06.520 --> 00:26:09.760 is this all runs inside of, 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.220 in your browser, client-side. 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.280 So that's one of the big differences with, say, Jupyter versus this, 00:26:15.520 --> 00:26:18.740 is it's powered by WebAssembly and PyOxide. 00:26:19.580 --> 00:26:19.900 Okay. 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:21.200 PyOdyed, rather, sorry. 00:26:22.620 --> 00:26:25.960 And so, for example, this one that I pulled up, I'll put it in the show notes, 00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:28.280 is the F1 Driver Career Explorer. 00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:29.960 And look how nice this looks, Brian. 00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:33.060 Like in terms of relative, compare that to Jupyter, for example, 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.420 I think it's got like a really beautiful style. 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:37.460 You know, you can check out, well, this is old. 00:26:37.620 --> 00:26:40.260 We've got to put Ferrari in here for Hamilton. 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:42.180 You only got Mercedes and McLaren. 00:26:42.820 --> 00:26:47.320 But it was powered by, say, DuckDB WebAssembly, for example, and F1 data. 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:51.160 And, yeah, it's got little Explorer sort of things. 00:26:51.460 --> 00:26:53.420 And it just feels really polished. 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.680 It also has a collaborative edit sort of thing, like Jupyter Notebooks. 00:26:58.080 --> 00:26:59.460 Sorry, like Google Docs, rather. 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:01.820 So you can, like, pair up on them. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.180 There's a lot of neat stuff about this. 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:04.600 Okay, but this is, okay. 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.800 It's still cool, but I misunderstood. 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.540 I thought maybe it was just a new way to run Jupyter. 00:27:10.540 --> 00:27:12.360 notebooks. Yes, 00:27:12.510 --> 00:27:14.740 but with a decent amount of new features, 00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:18.200 I mean, yeah. Well, I guess the 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:18.940 thing I'm 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.920 missing then or not understanding is, is there a relation between this 00:27:23.020 --> 00:27:26.900 and Jupyter notebooks? Can you use any of the rest 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:29.700 of the Jupyter environment? I believe so. I'm 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:30.560 trying 00:27:30.560 --> 00:27:30.760 to 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:34.500 remember now how much integration there is between those, but yeah, I think so. 00:27:34.770 --> 00:27:37.460 Okay, cool. I'll investigate more. 00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:38.440 Anyway, 00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:40.940 I'm still pretty excited about it. 00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:41.640 It looks pretty neat. 00:27:42.580 --> 00:27:43.520 I'll have to play with it a bit. 00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:45.180 Yep, absolutely. 00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:48.320 It's also another thing that it really tries to solve 00:27:48.500 --> 00:27:50.360 is they are trying to solve the... 00:27:50.360 --> 00:27:50.780 Oh, you know what? 00:27:50.780 --> 00:27:52.640 I said it had a Google Docs integration. 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:53.360 Not exactly. 00:27:53.800 --> 00:27:54.720 But what they're trying to solve 00:27:54.840 --> 00:27:59.460 is the real challenges of integrating notebooks with Git. 00:28:00.020 --> 00:28:01.260 So, for example, with notebooks, 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:03.580 they're really JSON files, 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.100 and then they've got the input blocks and the output blocks. 00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:07.800 So if you've run some code 00:28:07.820 --> 00:28:09.840 and it's dependent on anything that might change. 00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:12.480 You'll get like huge, instead of getting a nice merge, 00:28:12.560 --> 00:28:16.360 you'll get two conflicts of giant embedded blobs and so on. 00:28:16.590 --> 00:28:16.720 Yeah. 00:28:17.290 --> 00:28:19.880 The other thing that this really addresses around notebooks 00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:23.820 is notebooks allow you to run them in any order, 00:28:24.040 --> 00:28:25.780 which is kind of insane, right? 00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:29.200 Like I could run cell one, cell two, cell three, cell four, 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:33.000 change cell two, run cell four again to see what the output is. 00:28:33.090 --> 00:28:36.560 But maybe the changes would have made cell two be different 00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:37.640 or cell three be different. 00:28:37.780 --> 00:28:39.280 You can skip over. 00:28:39.560 --> 00:28:42.600 You'll have little numbers on the side of which order it was running. 00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:48.020 It'll be like 1, 7, 8, 19, 14 or something. 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:49.540 As you go down, you're like, oh, this. 00:28:50.340 --> 00:28:55.820 So this is reactive in the sense that every variable you create is wrapped. 00:28:56.080 --> 00:28:59.080 It's not technically wrapped in a reactive behavior thing. 00:28:59.300 --> 00:29:02.640 They parse the DOM every time you run anything. 00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:04.980 And they create relationships between cells. 00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:08.200 They'll say like, okay, cell 10 uses something from cell 1 and cell 3. 00:29:09.260 --> 00:29:13.460 So if you run cell 3, it knows that cell 10 is out of date 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:15.660 or potentially will just rerun it for you. 00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:19.540 So it keeps track of the relationships even depending on the order 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.500 so that you don't end up with like stale data 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.860 and then run another cell that pulls in that stale data and so on. 00:29:25.860 --> 00:29:27.440 So it's trying to really address that as well. 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:28.180 That's cool. 00:29:28.560 --> 00:29:28.640 Yeah. 00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:32.480 That's one of the things that threw me off when I first started using Notebooks. 00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:33.420 Yeah. 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:35.060 That's a little weird. 00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:37.900 Like, why is it allowed to just run this piece? 00:29:38.470 --> 00:29:41.460 And from an exploratory perspective, that makes sense. 00:29:41.490 --> 00:29:42.540 Like, well, those were all expensive, 00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:44.900 and now I just want to ask questions down here and over here. 00:29:45.300 --> 00:29:48.560 But from a reproducibility perspective and debugging, it's bad. 00:29:48.780 --> 00:29:49.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:54.360 So anyway, neat, something fun new to play with. 00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:56.520 Indeed, yeah, it's pretty cool. 00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.940 So that's our items. 00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:01.200 Do you have any extras for us? 00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:02.980 I do have some extras. 00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:05.200 Let's see a couple real quick. 00:30:05.919 --> 00:30:11.540 PyCon Taiwan, PyCon Taiwan 2025, is doing a call for proposals. 00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:13.120 It's going to be in the fall. 00:30:13.310 --> 00:30:17.940 And so you've got until April 5th anywhere in the world. 00:30:18.560 --> 00:30:21.700 So if you want to go to Taiwan and present stuff there, 00:30:22.290 --> 00:30:26.300 they have a decent number of English tracks and talks and stuff, 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.540 and they're looking for more. 00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:28.960 So check that out. 00:30:29.260 --> 00:30:31.960 Also, a follow-up on the Hacker News thing. 00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:36.860 Remember, Brian, I was reading the Hacker News thing saying, who's looking for a job? 00:30:37.040 --> 00:30:37.600 Who's hiring? 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.320 Well, Shinjitsu sent us a message and said, I'm sure some other Hacker News readers have 00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:43.160 already told you this. 00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:44.040 No, they haven't. 00:30:44.180 --> 00:30:45.260 So thank you, Shinjitsu. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.400 But if you haven't, you kind of got this exactly wrong. 00:30:50.060 --> 00:30:50.780 Like, oh, sorry. 00:30:50.780 --> 00:30:56.800 It says, Ask Hacker News Who Is Hiring is a monthly post that asks employers to post what 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.400 jobs they're posting, not people asking which one. 00:31:00.560 --> 00:31:05.700 And who wants to be hired is a monthly topic that has people who are looking for jobs about themselves. 00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:07.940 So did we have that backwards? 00:31:08.050 --> 00:31:08.860 It was actually bad news? 00:31:09.220 --> 00:31:10.720 Yeah, I think that's what it's saying. 00:31:10.770 --> 00:31:11.460 Let me see here. 00:31:11.780 --> 00:31:14.480 Yes, I think I said who wants to be hired was asked by the employers. 00:31:14.710 --> 00:31:17.680 And who is hiring was asked by the people looking for a job. 00:31:18.010 --> 00:31:19.880 But it sounds like it's the other way around. 00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:21.280 So that would make it less rosy. 00:31:22.110 --> 00:31:24.880 So sorry about that, folks, if that was a little bit backwards. 00:31:25.300 --> 00:31:25.860 Oh, okay. 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:26.340 See? 00:31:27.120 --> 00:31:27.460 Errata. 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:28.700 Errata. 00:31:29.020 --> 00:31:29.500 Yes, we have 00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:30.100 to have an errata. 00:31:31.080 --> 00:31:31.420 How about you? 00:31:32.320 --> 00:31:33.120 I got a couple of things. 00:31:34.060 --> 00:31:39.400 First off, PyCon US announced that there's a refund policy for international attendees 00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:43.780 if you qualify for certain things. 00:31:43.890 --> 00:31:47.960 And actually, I'm just embarrassed as American that we have to do stuff like this. 00:31:49.310 --> 00:31:53.080 But international travel in the United States has become more complex for many of our community. 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:56.060 PyCon US welcomes all community members to Pittsburgh. 00:31:56.840 --> 00:32:02.840 But if for some reason you can't come because of various problems, read the post for details. 00:32:04.100 --> 00:32:09.600 But they're a fairly – I think a fairly cool refund policy details. 00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:15.120 So anyway, if you can't come for some reason, check this out and maybe you can get a refund. 00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:15.420 I've been thinking 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:16.100 a lot about this. 00:32:16.340 --> 00:32:18.640 There's been a lot of badness. 00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:21.560 And I'm not happy about it, Brian. 00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:24.340 I'm not happy that our country is treating people that way. 00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:33.040 It's one thing if you catch somebody trying to sneak over the border and, I mean, it's a political debate on how lenient or aggressive you want to enforce that. 00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:42.900 But when people, especially from fellow ally countries, just try to come over and they get put in jail because they didn't have the right kind of visa or something, that is some bad stuff. 00:32:43.060 --> 00:32:43.640 That's embarrassing. 00:32:44.600 --> 00:32:49.000 Well, you would just never think that that was the way the U.S. would treat people. 00:32:49.060 --> 00:32:53.060 I know they've been a little bit tough on immigration, but, you know, Australia has, Canada has. 00:32:53.080 --> 00:32:56.820 I was detained at the Canadian border for a long time and finally was let into Canada. 00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:58.780 And it's, okay, it's a hassle. 00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:01.820 But this is another level of jerkery. 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:03.160 Yeah. 00:33:03.620 --> 00:33:06.040 I am glad to see that PyCon is doing this. 00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:07.500 I apologize to the world. 00:33:07.670 --> 00:33:10.760 I guarantee you Brian and I are not supporters of this policy. 00:33:12.040 --> 00:33:13.560 We're supporters of the refund policy. 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.020 Yes, not the 00:33:15.020 --> 00:33:15.880 cause of the refund 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:16.260 policy. 00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:16.540 Yeah. 00:33:18.740 --> 00:33:18.960 Right. 00:33:19.340 --> 00:33:19.500 Okay. 00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:30.220 Oh, on a slightly more positive note, I finally finished up restructuring the complete pytest course series. 00:33:31.040 --> 00:33:36.560 So originally it was – so this is over at pythontest.com. 00:33:37.620 --> 00:33:47.420 This originally was – I had a remaking the pytest book I wrote as a course, and it was one course. 00:33:47.620 --> 00:33:54.100 But really the book was into three parts and intended to be read at different times during your development process. 00:33:54.330 --> 00:33:57.880 When you're first starting out at pytest, then when you're trying to apply it to projects. 00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:04.700 And then when you're like really good at it and you really want to like take off and get great at it, there's another section. 00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:12.280 And I had it in one course and it doesn't write quite – I don't think it really quite fit how people use pytest and learn pytest. 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:13.840 So now it's split up. 00:34:13.870 --> 00:34:17.379 So you can still get the complete bundle and it gets the three parts. 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.200 but the three parts learning the basics of pi test is a separate course now you can just buy it 00:34:22.340 --> 00:34:29.760 separate and then um and then you can grab uh part two um and then part three but also part two is 00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:34.179 working with projects part three the booster rockets like building really uh building 00:34:34.460 --> 00:34:38.379 plugins is why you'd probably grab this um and advanced parameterization techniques 00:34:38.379 --> 00:34:39.760 however 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:40.679 even 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.500 if you didn't buy the other ones i like having them separate now because if somebody's like i 00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:49.700 really want to build my own plugin, you can just go check out this one course instead of taking all 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:54.520 three of them. So that's my big news there. The other, the other reason why the other structuring, 00:34:54.940 --> 00:35:01.060 restructuring that I did is I, all the chapters are now a single video per chapter for the most 00:35:01.160 --> 00:35:05.520 part. Chapters two and three are a bit long, so I split them up. So they're about 20 minutes each. 00:35:06.120 --> 00:35:12.000 But the thing that I really like about this now is that in each video you can pop in and you can 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:18.140 change the speed so you can watch like the whole like i'm i'm usually a 1.25 or 1.5 speed kind of 00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:24.160 person um and it was bugging me that you had to reset that setting every three minutes like for a 00:35:24.200 --> 00:35:29.500 three or five minute video now now it's only like you only set it once for a 20 minute video so 00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:34.040 anyway works better for me hopefully it works better for everybody else too so 00:35:34.040 --> 00:35:34.960 that's 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:35.940 my that's 00:35:36.040 --> 00:35:39.820 my big extra so yeah awesome congrats on getting that all already done that's great 00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:40.820 yeah 00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:41.960 so um 00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:42.780 How about a joke? 00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:43.520 Shall we boldly go? 00:35:44.100 --> 00:35:44.960 No one has gone before. 00:35:45.430 --> 00:35:45.580 Yeah. 00:35:45.870 --> 00:35:49.840 So last week's joke was around, was a Star Trek Klingon theme. 00:35:51.140 --> 00:35:52.940 And we had, who was it? 00:35:53.640 --> 00:35:59.260 We had somebody from Holgi on Mastodon said, again, you probably already know this, 00:35:59.540 --> 00:36:03.800 but there's this thing called Klingon programmers. 00:36:04.490 --> 00:36:06.400 So this is over at Cornell.edu. 00:36:06.820 --> 00:36:10.820 Top 12 things likely to be heard if you are a Klingon programmer. 00:36:11.620 --> 00:36:15.000 And I kind of love this, so we should probably zoom in a little bit. 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:19.920 Okay, we're not going to read all 12, but number 12 is actually pretty good. 00:36:20.420 --> 00:36:23.040 Specifications are for the weak and timid. 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:25.240 Do you want to read any of these? 00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:26.580 Let's see. 00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:28.600 This machine is a piece of God. 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.820 I need a dual Pentium processor if I am to do battle with this code. 00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.640 Yeah, number four, a true Klingon warrior does not comment his code. 00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:39.900 Debugging. 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:41.240 Klingons do not debug. 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:43.140 Our software does not coddle the weak. 00:36:51.080 --> 00:36:53.320 Klingon functions do not have parameters. 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:55.720 They have arguments, and they always win them. 00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:57.720 I love it. 00:36:58.120 --> 00:37:00.220 All right, let's round out the 00:37:00.220 --> 00:37:01.640 tie back to last week, 00:37:01.720 --> 00:37:04.100 which was we will test in production. 00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:05.400 Okay, yeah. 00:37:05.660 --> 00:37:07.240 So this is, what, number one? 00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:08.720 Number one, do it. 00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:12.600 Our users will know fear and cower before our software. 00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:16.060 Ship it, ship it, and let them flee like the dogs they are. 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:17.880 Exactly. 00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:18.720 This is good. 00:37:19.540 --> 00:37:24.140 This is a reminder also to everybody that if you think we probably have already heard it, 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.880 there's a decent chance we haven't, so send it to us anyway. 00:37:27.330 --> 00:37:28.140 We don't mind repeats. 00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:31.080 So if you find something funny or something. 00:37:31.080 --> 00:37:31.940 People give us a lot of credit, 00:37:32.100 --> 00:37:32.280 Brian. 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:34.700 Maybe too much, more than we deserve sometimes. 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:35.480 Yeah. 00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:36.900 Anyway. 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:44.620 Well, thanks again for jumping on the call with us and enjoy doing another episode. 00:37:44.810 --> 00:37:48.980 And thank you, everybody that listens and everybody that shares this with other people. 00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:51.640 We like to grow our community. 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.120 Yeah, very much appreciate it, everyone. 00:37:53.370 --> 00:37:53.720 See you all later. 00:37:53.990 --> 00:37:54.300 Bye, Brian. 00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:54.680 Bye.