WEBVTT 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.800 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:05.260 --> 00:00:07.080 This is episode 481, 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:09.180 recorded May 25th. 00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:11.620 May 25th, 2026, 00:00:11.980 --> 00:00:13.180 not 1926. 00:00:13.700 --> 00:00:14.720 And I am Brian Okken. 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:15.620 I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.880 And this show is sponsored by us. 00:00:20.060 --> 00:00:23.320 Check out all the Talk Python training courses, 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:24.760 the pytest course, 00:00:26.219 --> 00:00:28.080 and thanks to Patreon supporters 00:00:28.400 --> 00:00:30.080 and also we've both written books 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:31.380 so check out books also 00:00:32.180 --> 00:00:34.180 and I'll have a little bit of news on the Lean TDD 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:34.600 later. 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:36.160 We both have something 00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:38.080 fresh for people that if they want to support us 00:00:38.120 --> 00:00:39.820 they can check it out. Something fresh, yeah. 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:41.300 You can, 00:00:41.540 --> 00:00:42.000 if you've got 00:00:42.380 --> 00:00:43.460 suggestions or 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:44.720 yeah, 00:00:44.900 --> 00:00:45.720 if you've got complaints, 00:00:45.940 --> 00:00:46.040 send 00:00:46.120 --> 00:00:46.360 to Michael, 00:00:46.540 --> 00:00:47.380 but if you have suggestions, 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:48.120 send to either 00:00:48.260 --> 00:00:49.840 of us and the 00:00:50.879 --> 00:00:52.160 info is on the show 00:00:52.260 --> 00:00:52.400 notes, 00:00:52.680 --> 00:00:54.380 but we're on Mastodon 00:00:54.540 --> 00:00:55.020 and 00:00:55.040 --> 00:01:02.740 um and blue sky and all the all the places so um also if you're listening to this and would like to 00:01:03.020 --> 00:01:08.620 like see what we look like or watch the watch the stuff or show even show up live you can go to 00:01:08.980 --> 00:01:15.060 pythonbytes.fm live where there's a link to join the audience and during the during the recording 00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:20.700 a lot of people sometimes people drop in questions and we'll answer them on the show that's fun and 00:01:20.720 --> 00:01:21.180 And lastly, 00:01:21.860 --> 00:01:24.300 you don't have to take notes because all of these, 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:26.200 all of the links are, 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:26.980 the links 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:31.060 are in the show notes, but the links and extra information are sent out in the email newsletter. 00:01:31.500 --> 00:01:37.280 So you can subscribe at pythonbytes.fm and we will send you a whole bunch of information. 00:01:37.740 --> 00:01:39.740 If you don't quite understand what we're talking about, 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.200 there's some background information 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:42.920 there too that will fill you in. 00:01:43.240 --> 00:01:43.580 With that, 00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:44.720 let's talk about something dumb. 00:01:45.020 --> 00:01:45.960 Dumb ways to die. 00:01:46.460 --> 00:01:48.080 Dumb ways for open source projects to die. 00:01:48.380 --> 00:01:48.540 Oh, 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:49.880 and let me count the ways. 00:01:50.100 --> 00:01:51.660 This one is by Andrew Nesbitt. 00:01:51.790 --> 00:01:52.420 It's an article. 00:01:52.820 --> 00:01:55.500 It's a taxonomy, I suppose, is the way you would put it. 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:56.300 Pretty interesting. 00:01:56.740 --> 00:02:01.980 I think it creates some interesting ways to talk about and think about just open source 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:04.140 projects and supply chain, 00:02:04.460 --> 00:02:07.020 mostly not security, although a little bit security, 00:02:07.250 --> 00:02:08.660 but also just 00:02:09.399 --> 00:02:09.679 stability, 00:02:10.110 --> 00:02:10.259 right? 00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:15.120 So this taxonomy is broken into a two-level tree. 00:02:15.250 --> 00:02:19.280 So there's things like the maintainer left and the maintainer is still there. 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.680 sabotage and capture, 00:02:20.910 --> 00:02:22.280 the release pipeline broke and so on. 00:02:22.450 --> 00:02:23.960 And for each one of those, there's a 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.060 bunch of sub items that are really good. 00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:28.380 So for the maintainer left, 00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:29.900 I'll give you a couple of 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:30.920 them. They're all pretty interesting. 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:32.620 So I won't read the whole article, 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:33.540 but I'll read off a few 00:02:33.550 --> 00:02:35.980 of them so you'll get the sense and you can come back and use this as a resource. 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:37.020 So under the 00:02:37.300 --> 00:02:39.320 maintainer left, we have the ghost maintainer, 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:41.340 the simple and most common case. 00:02:41.650 --> 00:02:42.740 The last human commit 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:43.640 is some years ago. 00:02:43.980 --> 00:02:47.480 Issues are accumulated unanswered. The repo is not archived, 00:02:47.750 --> 00:02:48.760 so it doesn't show up in 00:02:48.720 --> 00:02:49.920 any filter that would flag it. 00:02:50.220 --> 00:02:52.940 Usually the maintainer just moved on and it wasn't important 00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:55.200 enough to formally hand it over or shut it down. 00:02:55.390 --> 00:02:56.220 And it goes on a bit. 00:02:56.500 --> 00:02:57.240 And by the way, 00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:00.900 Andrew references this weekend that Bernie research, 00:03:01.350 --> 00:03:01.620 he did, 00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:03.900 and basically went through 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:09.220 different packaging platforms or services or whatever, like PyPI or npm and so on, 00:03:09.430 --> 00:03:09.740 and said 00:03:09.790 --> 00:03:14.360 like, well, which one of these are in an active state, a dormant state, a dead state, unknown, 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:16.060 and has a percent dead. 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:18.740 And PyPI actually has a very low percent dead. 00:03:19.160 --> 00:03:20.000 Conda is better. 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.000 Maven is better. 00:03:21.130 --> 00:03:23.240 But everything else is worse, like quite a few others. 00:03:23.290 --> 00:03:24.280 So that's pretty interesting. 00:03:24.580 --> 00:03:26.800 Yeah, it goes up there at like 20%. 00:03:27.020 --> 00:03:28.100 I know, that's crazy, 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:28.360 right? 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:31.540 So it's kind of like, let's take those and then categorize. 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:34.020 So we went through and did a bunch of research on these and said, 00:03:34.090 --> 00:03:34.180 okay, 00:03:34.380 --> 00:03:35.760 well, why is it dead? 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:37.480 What ways can it be dead? 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:38.680 So there's the, just, 00:03:38.830 --> 00:03:39.560 they ghosted, right? 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:40.600 The maintainer just ghosted. 00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:40.840 It's fine. 00:03:40.900 --> 00:03:42.120 There could be the corporate orphan. 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:44.700 A company built and open sourced it with a team to run it. 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:48.200 and then pivoted or laid off the people and nobody updated it because they just, 00:03:48.420 --> 00:03:48.520 well, 00:03:48.700 --> 00:03:49.020 they're fired. 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:50.200 That's an interesting one. 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:51.900 There's the thesis orphan. 00:03:52.260 --> 00:03:55.140 I created this project as a PhD or master's thesis, 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:56.960 and then I graduated and I'm done. 00:03:57.860 --> 00:03:58.940 I'm not messing with it anymore. 00:03:59.540 --> 00:04:00.620 I actually didn't enjoy it anyway. 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:01.540 Funding cliff, 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:02.120 similar, 00:04:02.440 --> 00:04:06.520 like it has a grant or an NSF grant or something like that. 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:08.200 And then when the money's gone, 00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:09.460 stop and so on. 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:10.680 Let's go on the next category. 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:12.320 So this one's also really common. 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:14.820 The maintainer's still there, but there's the burnout plateau, 00:04:15.260 --> 00:04:16.900 still active by any metric you'd run. 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.320 Typo fixes and dependency bumps get merged with the occasional thanks on an issue, 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:28.000 but anything that needs actual design work or serious debugging is open indefinitely because they're just done. 00:04:29.140 --> 00:04:29.800 Custody battle, 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:31.960 two maintainers fighting over it. 00:04:32.320 --> 00:04:33.460 Toxic gatekeeping, 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.640 you know, the person in charge of it just doesn't really want to maintain it, 00:04:36.760 --> 00:04:38.840 but also to all new incoming work. 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.780 That happens a lot, I think, actually. 00:04:40.960 --> 00:04:41.980 Yeah, I think so. 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:44.380 there's the sabotage and capture. 00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:45.800 Captured maintainer. 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:49.000 Commit or publish access ends up with someone hostile. 00:04:49.320 --> 00:04:51.280 XZ is an elaborate version. 00:04:51.400 --> 00:04:53.440 Remember that two-year social engineering campaign 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:57.520 that eventually talked that person into letting the person take over, 00:04:57.550 --> 00:04:59.700 but they were actually a state actor, 00:05:00.030 --> 00:05:00.620 we believe. 00:05:00.820 --> 00:05:01.260 Addison Ware. 00:05:01.530 --> 00:05:04.320 And then we've also covered the protest where, this is bad, 00:05:04.620 --> 00:05:05.460 seems to be more JavaScript, 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:06.280 but there it is. 00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:09.720 The legitimate maintainer deliberately breaks their own package. 00:05:10.140 --> 00:05:13.040 Colors and Faker were sabotaged by their author in 2022. 00:05:14.440 --> 00:05:16.220 LeftPad was unpublished entirely. 00:05:16.820 --> 00:05:19.200 Remember that one was pretty bad. 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:19.900 That was funny. 00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:23.340 Why is there an entire package that just LeftPad's a string? 00:05:23.450 --> 00:05:24.340 Like, that's all it does. 00:05:24.700 --> 00:05:26.940 You know, it's just too fine-grained. 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:27.380 All right. 00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:29.920 The release pipeline broke, a bunch of stuff around that. 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:30.960 Force majeure, 00:05:31.300 --> 00:05:32.180 like, sanctions. 00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:34.440 Some people's accounts have been shut down or blocked 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.360 because they've been frozen under export controls 00:05:37.410 --> 00:05:38.360 or other things like that, 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:40.100 or taken down because of DMCA. 00:05:40.500 --> 00:05:41.340 The world moved on. 00:05:41.350 --> 00:05:44.340 This one we know well from the Python world. 00:05:44.570 --> 00:05:46.060 The platform got stranded, 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:48.680 like chained to an end-of-the-life runtime. 00:05:49.520 --> 00:05:50.440 Python 2 only, 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.660 or requires a certain node version or whatever. 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:55.420 And related to that is the transit of death. 00:05:55.590 --> 00:05:57.660 So the project's fine, the maintainer's present willing, 00:05:57.820 --> 00:06:00.320 but something two or three levels down in its own dependency tree 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:02.140 can't be swapped out without a rewrite, 00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:03.580 like think Python 2, 00:06:03.950 --> 00:06:04.060 right? 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.180 Why did a lot of stuff not upgrade to Python 3? 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:09.780 because something it depended upon was Python 2 only. 00:06:09.830 --> 00:06:11.420 And so there's no way to get there. 00:06:11.430 --> 00:06:11.920 You know what I mean? 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:12.300 Yeah. 00:06:12.500 --> 00:06:13.320 API rug pull. 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:14.520 I've seen this like, hey, 00:06:14.670 --> 00:06:15.320 I depended upon, 00:06:15.320 --> 00:06:16.220 I wrote something that wraps, 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:19.060 like let's say the Reddit's API or Twitter API. 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:20.700 And then those APIs go away. 00:06:20.780 --> 00:06:21.340 And guess what? 00:06:21.580 --> 00:06:23.080 Your app or library doesn't work. 00:06:23.440 --> 00:06:24.260 Or it's just superseded, 00:06:24.640 --> 00:06:24.720 right? 00:06:24.880 --> 00:06:27.000 Like there's no reason to do a thing 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:29.500 if it's now part of the language or something like that. 00:06:29.780 --> 00:06:30.200 Project split. 00:06:31.660 --> 00:06:31.780 Yeah, 00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:32.660 that's pretty much it. 00:06:32.980 --> 00:06:33.280 Licensing. 00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:34.160 So what do you think? 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:34.760 That's pretty neat, right? 00:06:34.940 --> 00:06:35.480 Yeah. 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:40.800 And one of the things that's unfortunate is because a lot of the open source, 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:41.460 I don't know, 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:43.400 there's a lot of projects, 00:06:43.830 --> 00:06:52.920 or there at least have been enough projects that has been painful that have had a lot of users and like something happened and it's not maintained anymore. 00:06:53.180 --> 00:06:57.480 And it's not, there isn't a really good way to transition away or to something else. 00:06:57.840 --> 00:06:58.780 And it gets messy. 00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:00.860 I mean, we had, I had a, 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:01.320 like, 00:07:01.730 --> 00:07:03.160 even at work, 00:07:03.330 --> 00:07:05.000 we had a project that we were depending on 00:07:05.070 --> 00:07:06.840 that was by Python 2 only. 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:11.500 And it's one of those things of, like, we could have thrown money at it and just had 00:07:11.730 --> 00:07:12.160 a corporate, 00:07:12.400 --> 00:07:14.540 you know, a corporate entity could convert it. 00:07:14.770 --> 00:07:16.400 But we waited until a university, 00:07:16.780 --> 00:07:18.360 some university students did it. 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:18.740 But, 00:07:19.020 --> 00:07:20.000 you know, that seems dumb. 00:07:20.260 --> 00:07:21.340 Why not throw money at it? 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:23.840 I think for a lot of, a lot of these. 00:07:23.890 --> 00:07:24.800 You could just pay the person, 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:26.640 hey, I know it's on this old version, 00:07:26.900 --> 00:07:27.840 but would $5,000 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:29.480 make it work on the new version too? 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:30.920 A lot of times people say, heck yeah. 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:33.500 Or I've wanted to do it, but I don't have the time or energy, 00:07:33.740 --> 00:07:33.820 right? 00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:38.980 Or get your own people to do the conversion work, take it over. 00:07:39.580 --> 00:07:43.800 Honestly, I'd rather see companies support the maintainers and get it upgraded. 00:07:44.020 --> 00:07:45.320 But if that's not an option, 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:46.900 Claude could probably upgrade it too. 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:50.660 Well, I mean, in the case where somebody just moved on, 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:52.680 they're not interested in the project anymore, 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.600 throwing money at them is probably not the right option. 00:07:57.640 --> 00:07:58.160 Yeah, that's true. 00:07:58.280 --> 00:07:59.260 It depends on the situation. 00:07:59.340 --> 00:08:02.960 I'll give you two examples of these in the Python space that both make me say, well, 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:05.440 one's in the front end CSS space is Bulma. 00:08:05.710 --> 00:08:06.620 I really like Bulma. 00:08:06.980 --> 00:08:08.000 Super cool project. 00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:11.120 It sells itself as a modern CSS framework and all these things. 00:08:11.640 --> 00:08:13.580 But let's see, when was the last release? 00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:15.740 Oh yeah, about a year and a half ago. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:16.300 Really? 00:08:16.760 --> 00:08:16.920 Weird. 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:18.080 Which is really sad. 00:08:18.220 --> 00:08:21.360 Like there was a commit for something super, 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:22.460 like, so this, 00:08:22.640 --> 00:08:23.840 I think this is an absolute 00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:25.080 telltale sign of this. 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.280 So people out there thinking about projects they want to depend upon. 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:29.660 This is a mega sign for it. 00:08:29.820 --> 00:08:30.940 So three months ago, 00:08:31.420 --> 00:08:33.860 the maintainer of this fixed issue 4000. 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:35.080 What is issue 4000? 00:08:35.659 --> 00:08:38.400 The footer has a broken logo on the website. 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.740 Meanwhile, it's got 50,000 GitHub stars, 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:47.480 4,000 forks. 00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:48.420 And that's fine. 00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:49.040 Like this guy, 00:08:49.420 --> 00:08:51.200 he doesn't owe the world anything. 00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:52.860 If he built it, it's amazing. 00:08:52.940 --> 00:08:54.020 I actually use this. 00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:59.120 I love Bulma and I decided to keep using it even though it's basically dead in the water 00:08:59.500 --> 00:09:00.820 because I looked around and all the other stuff. 00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:02.920 It's like Tailwind, but way less complicated. 00:09:03.420 --> 00:09:04.640 And it's going to keep working. 00:09:04.710 --> 00:09:06.860 And in five years, I'll find something else. 00:09:06.930 --> 00:09:07.340 But right now I 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:08.260 could see it though. So 00:09:08.260 --> 00:09:10.140 you've got 10 minutes to work. Maybe 00:09:10.140 --> 00:09:12.020 you've got a half an hour on the weekend to work on it. You 00:09:12.020 --> 00:09:16.640 open this up and you see 346 issues and 175 pull requests. 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:17.400 I 00:09:17.400 --> 00:09:20.300 just close my laptop and go outside and mow the lawn or something. 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:20.600 I 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:20.840 know. 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:22.940 No, 00:09:23.060 --> 00:09:23.340 I know. 00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:25.160 And so the guy doesn't owe the world anything. 00:09:25.460 --> 00:09:27.040 He created something cool and that's fine. 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.020 He doesn't have to do, but there, 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:30.200 here's something that bugs me. 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:32.140 And I would just like to put this out there for, for people. 00:09:32.280 --> 00:09:32.740 And you know, I, 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:33.900 if I have projects like this, 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.080 I consider myself same and nothing. 00:09:36.170 --> 00:09:37.080 I have nothing of the scale. 00:09:37.280 --> 00:09:38.080 But for example, 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:39.560 if I go to the pull request section, 00:09:39.740 --> 00:09:40.440 I understand what you're saying, 00:09:40.540 --> 00:09:41.200 Brian, like, oh God, 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:42.280 there's so much work here, 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.320 but he should put some kind of message 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:45.020 that says, 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:45.840 Hey, listen, 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:47.540 I just can't right now. 00:09:47.910 --> 00:09:49.840 So please don't submit any PR. 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:52.980 I don't go do work that I won't even look at. 00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:57.600 So if you look at the PRs, like there's one, one on February 20th, one on January 20th, 00:09:57.780 --> 00:10:03.600 and there's 175 PRs without even a response to them going back, 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:04.300 you know, 00:10:04.640 --> 00:10:04.720 way, 00:10:05.060 --> 00:10:05.420 I don't know, 00:10:05.540 --> 00:10:06.360 how far do they go back? 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:07.860 You got a page to it, right? 00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:09.340 Like 2018. 00:10:10.260 --> 00:10:11.340 You know what I mean? And so 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.120 I just feel like it kind of bugs me that there's all these people out in the world go, oh, I'm going 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:16.120 to help improve this project. 00:10:16.400 --> 00:10:18.860 I'm like, I'm going to add the view CLI. Like, no, you're not, 00:10:18.940 --> 00:10:21.900 because it's not going to get responded to and so on. 00:10:21.900 --> 00:10:25.460 And also there's 36 people sponsoring the project, 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:27.560 like paying money monthly to support it. 00:10:27.660 --> 00:10:29.360 Like, I just feel like at some point you're like, 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:31.340 just please use it, please enjoy it, 00:10:31.540 --> 00:10:33.460 but don't do extra work to it 00:10:33.510 --> 00:10:36.080 because I'm not in a space where I want to 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:37.500 or able to work on this right now. 00:10:37.810 --> 00:10:38.480 You know, I don't know. 00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:39.380 What are you thinking on that? 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:41.920 Well, I think that sometimes you're optimistic 00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:45.700 when you originally like write up a contributor guideline, 00:10:46.220 --> 00:10:47.620 but need to update it to say, 00:10:48.140 --> 00:10:48.200 Yeah, 00:10:48.420 --> 00:10:50.540 I'm not going to accept contributions, 00:10:50.790 --> 00:10:51.180 I guess. 00:10:51.880 --> 00:10:52.200 Yeah, exactly. 00:10:52.350 --> 00:10:54.320 I think one sentence on the readme, like, hey, 00:10:54.520 --> 00:10:56.720 look, I just can't, like a big, bold, I can't right now, 00:10:56.880 --> 00:10:57.000 folks. 00:10:57.500 --> 00:10:58.900 So please just hold your thoughts, 00:10:59.530 --> 00:10:59.860 you know, 00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:00.720 and so on. 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:02.180 Because anyway, 00:11:02.450 --> 00:11:05.440 so the other one is disk cache, which I use and love. 00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:05.820 What? 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:07.100 That's abandoned? 00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:08.880 Last commit two years ago. 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:10.060 Maybe it just works, though. 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:10.680 Yeah. 00:11:11.160 --> 00:11:11.780 But here's the thing. 00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:12.620 Well, 00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:14.240 I mean, there's 20 pull requests, 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:15.940 50 issues, no responses. 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:18.400 The guy Grant, I don't know him. 00:11:18.460 --> 00:11:19.220 I don't know his background. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:22.220 But I noticed that he was hired by OpenAI 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.620 almost exactly just a little bit after the last release. 00:11:26.300 --> 00:11:29.160 So he's just, I don't know if this was captured in the taxonomy, 00:11:29.420 --> 00:11:30.360 but like I've been, 00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:31.140 it is actually, 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:32.580 I can't remember which one, 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:34.480 but there's like one of them where, hey, 00:11:34.560 --> 00:11:36.780 if you get hired at a company that doesn't let you do open source, 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.320 your projects kind of like de facto die, 00:11:39.760 --> 00:11:40.900 unless you can get someone else to do it. 00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:41.520 You know what I mean? 00:11:42.359 --> 00:11:46.540 Or you did open source to try to be well-known enough 00:11:46.540 --> 00:11:47.660 hired by OpenAI. 00:11:48.260 --> 00:11:49.700 I'm not saying there's a negative outcome. 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:51.780 Probably an amazing outcome for Grant. 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:53.520 So congrats to him. 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:55.840 And again, he doesn't know the world or anything. I think this is a little 00:11:55.940 --> 00:12:00.760 bit different because it's really a wrapper on SQLite and SQLite is constantly being maintained 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:01.380 and updated. 00:12:01.540 --> 00:12:03.780 So I feel less worried about it. 00:12:04.140 --> 00:12:04.240 Anyway, 00:12:04.420 --> 00:12:06.880 dumb ways for open source projects that I, 00:12:07.140 --> 00:12:08.020 there's just two examples. 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:09.100 I think this is important, 00:12:09.260 --> 00:12:10.260 especially for newcomers to open 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:11.220 source and Python. 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:14.960 When you add something to your project as a requirement, 00:12:15.620 --> 00:12:16.280 you should know, 00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:21.380 the consequences of doing that right um i want to add one more thing there's a there are a lot of 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:26.500 packages that really don't need that a lot that many updates um even if even if they have issues 00:12:26.780 --> 00:12:31.020 in pull requests they might be just maybe the maintainer's not that great at saying you know i 00:12:31.160 --> 00:12:37.720 don't feel like it or something um but one way to keep it like to to keep it noted that it's alive 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:43.580 is once a year update your tests to the new python version um then it's at least a year old and you 00:12:43.520 --> 00:12:45.380 know it's being tested on the latest Python. 00:12:45.880 --> 00:12:48.300 And that's the bare minimum, 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:48.780 I think. 00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:49.220 Yeah. 00:12:49.540 --> 00:12:51.260 Change your classifier. 00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:52.260 What are those things called? 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:53.780 Your classifier to just say, 00:12:54.290 --> 00:12:55.740 take out the old Python, put in the new Python, 00:12:56.140 --> 00:12:57.460 something like that. You have a classifier in 00:12:57.540 --> 00:12:58.380 here and you're good to go. 00:12:58.670 --> 00:13:00.260 Yeah. But projects can be done. 00:13:00.450 --> 00:13:01.500 They definitely can be done. 00:13:01.900 --> 00:13:02.020 It's 00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:02.200 just, 00:13:02.410 --> 00:13:05.540 they don't need more changes. But I think it's all pretty interesting, 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.280 but let's take us on 00:13:07.300 --> 00:13:08.840 to more packaging talk. 00:13:10.580 --> 00:13:10.780 Yeah. 00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:11.260 Okay. 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:12.260 So the, 00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:14.840 I wanted to talk, this is a brief one, but, 00:13:15.180 --> 00:13:15.380 um, 00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:21.040 this is a Tim Hopper article on how to create a PyLock Toml file. 00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:21.980 And, 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:23.440 um, I just kind of forgot 00:13:23.660 --> 00:13:26.340 that these were sort of rolling in at different times. 00:13:26.560 --> 00:13:27.600 And as of May, 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:28.240 um, 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.380 now of 2026, 00:13:31.060 --> 00:13:31.340 there's 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:40.300 now three ways to create these these guys so uh he he covers um using uv pip and pdm and notes that 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:47.220 uv is the only one that says it's in stable status uh the pip lock uh piloc tunnel generation 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:52.880 is experimental and so is pdm experimental i didn't know pdm did it i'm not really a pdm user 00:13:53.420 --> 00:14:00.040 um but the uh yeah just uh sort of sort of running down uh how to how to create lock files with the 00:13:59.980 --> 00:14:05.280 all these tools and it's kind of just a general neat tutorial with the 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:10.420 recommendation of why not just use uv because it works the incantations a 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:15.300 little magic it's uv export --format by lock Tomo with an output of 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:19.180 pilot all hmm seems you're done I wonder if there's there are I think there's a 00:14:19.260 --> 00:14:22.320 global config for uv I wonder if you could put it in there that'd be 00:14:22.400 --> 00:14:27.140 interesting I don't know and if you the he also has apparently a companion page 00:14:27.160 --> 00:14:34.040 of how to install and the how to install is the short version is use -r because 00:14:34.190 --> 00:14:38.900 every they all the tools treat it like a requirements file so oh not completely 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:45.200 interesting no depths oh you know no dependencies okay anyway yeah just 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:50.580 creating by like toml files I'm and yeah it's kind of the way we were moving so 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:51.140 That's it. 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:52.000 It sure is. 00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:53.320 Very interesting. 00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:53.920 Now, 00:14:54.920 --> 00:14:56.580 let's talk about lifeguard. 00:14:57.020 --> 00:14:57.840 So lifeguard, 00:14:58.140 --> 00:15:00.480 we've talked about... That was a good summer topic. 00:15:00.800 --> 00:15:01.240 Exactly. 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.980 A lot of places, at least in the U.S., 00:15:04.260 --> 00:15:08.940 public pools open on Memorial Day and all the lifeguards go back to work and you need a lifeguard 00:15:09.180 --> 00:15:14.180 job. And it's often a rite of passage of high school to work as a lifeguard. 00:15:14.520 --> 00:15:16.779 So this works for 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:17.720 lazy imports. 00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:18.080 Remember, 00:15:18.260 --> 00:15:19.480 lazy imports are coming in Python, 00:15:20.040 --> 00:15:21.180 which is going to be really nice. 00:15:21.760 --> 00:15:25.320 And I was pretty interested in before, but then I did that work where, 00:15:25.660 --> 00:15:26.140 and I wrote it up, 00:15:26.300 --> 00:15:27.340 said, we talked about it here, 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:32.260 cutting Python web app memory by 31%. A lot of that had to do with 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:37.160 imports and changing imports and only using heavyweight libraries when they actually executed 00:15:37.250 --> 00:15:38.400 the code that needed them. 00:15:38.660 --> 00:15:39.940 But so lazy imports, 00:15:40.170 --> 00:15:40.300 good, 00:15:40.690 --> 00:15:41.100 I think. 00:15:41.520 --> 00:15:41.660 However, 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:43.900 lazy imports also can have 00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:45.840 incompatibilities in other issues. 00:15:46.280 --> 00:15:49.920 So this lifeguard library will go through and find those issues. 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:51.520 It's, I don't know if we, 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.360 it's kind of an interesting juxtaposition. 00:15:54.660 --> 00:15:55.880 It has 56 GitHub 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:57.380 stars. So it's kind of like brand new, 00:15:57.640 --> 00:16:00.160 which is fine. It's just like a linter type thing made by 00:16:01.640 --> 00:16:01.820 Facebook. 00:16:02.180 --> 00:16:06.900 So it's probably something that meta used internally and they just open sourced, you 00:16:06.920 --> 00:16:07.880 know, a couple months ago. 00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:08.760 So that's all good. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.240 Looks like it is a Rust based thing because it 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:12.400 as a cargo folder. 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.020 And that was two months ago when it was created. 00:16:15.020 --> 00:16:17.180 I don't know when it actually came out public on GitHub, 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:17.520 right? 00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:18.780 Because you can have a private repo 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:20.800 and then flip it to public at some point. 00:16:20.860 --> 00:16:21.060 Anyway, 00:16:21.370 --> 00:16:22.700 it says, what are lazy points? 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.300 We talked about that in ports. 00:16:24.740 --> 00:16:25.140 But it says, 00:16:25.380 --> 00:16:27.180 the idea is obviously, 00:16:27.560 --> 00:16:28.600 especially in large code bases, 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:29.160 this 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:32.160 both increases startup time and lowers memory usage, 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:32.540 which 00:16:32.540 --> 00:16:32.740 is great. 00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:33.280 However, 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.180 sometimes it doesn't work 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.400 because there's certain Python patterns that 00:16:38.660 --> 00:16:40.620 require these things to execute immediately. 00:16:40.880 --> 00:16:46.260 So module level side effects, like a module that registers a handler or 00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:51.300 modifies global state at import time will behave differently if its import is deferred. 00:16:51.420 --> 00:16:54.760 Think about something that sets sysstat at exit, 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:55.420 right? 00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:58.540 So it wants to run some code at exit to unravel something. 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:03.540 But that's only there if you call the function that causes the lazy import to load and so 00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:03.940 on, right? 00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:05.480 As opposed to the way it does now. 00:17:05.600 --> 00:17:06.600 The registry pattern. 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:08.180 So dependency injection, I'm guessing. 00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:14.740 A module registers itself added to a global dict that when imported will silently fail under lazy imports. 00:17:15.459 --> 00:17:16.699 Sys.modules manipulations. 00:17:16.939 --> 00:17:21.100 Code that reads and writes Sys.modules assumes that prior imports have already executed. 00:17:21.459 --> 00:17:21.900 Interesting. 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:23.319 And metaclasses. 00:17:23.860 --> 00:17:25.760 Class creation side effects may depend on. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.800 So you can just run this against your project and it'll tell you how safe are your lazy imports. 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:30.920 And you can't be lazy. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.820 It's a lifeguard. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:32.600 Looks out for you. 00:17:32.770 --> 00:17:34.880 So you don't, I guess, drown in lazy imports. 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:36.820 Yeah. 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:37.340 Anyway, 00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:40.700 I just want to put that out there for people because this is coming in Python 3.15. 00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:42.940 And it's always better to go, 00:17:43.300 --> 00:17:48.780 hey, let's test our package or our application on this new version before it's actually released. 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.040 Especially if you have a package other people use, right? 00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:51.520 Yeah. 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:56.680 And I guess that I think like testing is often pretty safe to do lazy imports. 00:17:56.820 --> 00:17:57.940 So I just want to throw out, 00:17:58.200 --> 00:17:59.140 I don't have a link or anything, 00:17:59.340 --> 00:18:05.740 but a reminder to people that if you're loading something fairly large for testing purposes and you have a big suite, 00:18:06.120 --> 00:18:09.340 You can throw that into a conf test or not a conf test. 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:10.480 We could do me in a conf test, 00:18:10.600 --> 00:18:15.600 but you can throw the import into a fixture and even an auto use fixture and 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:15.800 it'll, 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:18.700 it'll load at runtime instead of test collection time then. 00:18:19.020 --> 00:18:19.940 So it's a lot faster. 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:20.620 That's very good. 00:18:20.840 --> 00:18:23.380 You're focusing on just some category test or something like that. 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:24.020 You don't have to do it. 00:18:24.260 --> 00:18:24.500 All right, 00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:25.480 let's log it. 00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:26.720 Let's log it. 00:18:28.059 --> 00:18:29.040 So there's a, 00:18:29.120 --> 00:18:32.280 I ran across this article called choosing a Python library log, 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.360 choosing a Python logging library in 2026. 00:18:36.060 --> 00:18:42.880 And this just kind of came up at the right time because I've got a project that I'm switching to use. 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:45.380 My plan is to switch it to use Logaroo. 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:46.400 Logaroo? 00:18:46.840 --> 00:18:47.300 I don't know. 00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:48.060 Logaroo. 00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:49.720 L-O-G-U-R-U. 00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:50.680 And the, 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.360 but so I was looking at this just because it's interesting. 00:18:54.530 --> 00:18:57.420 So the comparison is to the straight logging module, 00:18:57.600 --> 00:18:59.140 struct log, Logaroo, 00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:00.200 logbook, 00:19:00.460 --> 00:19:01.420 and Pico logging. 00:19:01.820 --> 00:19:05.580 And it looks like they sort of gave up on some of those. 00:19:05.860 --> 00:19:12.520 But one of the interesting things about using straight logging was that doing structured output like JSON, 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:15.140 like logging JSON information, 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:16.760 is a little bit difficult. 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:24.620 So their recommendation right off the bat is to use a project called Python JSON Logger, 00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:25.820 which I didn't know about, 00:19:26.020 --> 00:19:28.900 which you can use with the standard logging module. 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.300 And it just makes logging easier. 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:34.300 They even have a, the same, 00:19:34.540 --> 00:19:37.300 same people that wrote the original article have a setup guide, 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.680 a practical guide to setting up the JSON logger. 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.220 So that's, that's cool. 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:42.760 And especially I was thinking like, 00:19:43.020 --> 00:19:46.020 especially for API endpoints or entry points or whatever, 00:19:46.460 --> 00:19:48.720 that's important, but there's, he's JSON all over the place. 00:19:48.860 --> 00:19:48.980 So, 00:19:49.780 --> 00:19:55.200 but so just talking about comparing them all and they didn't really give an example. 00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:56.220 They actually talked about, 00:19:56.980 --> 00:19:57.760 well, they have examples, 00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.920 but they didn't recommend anything. 00:20:00.340 --> 00:20:08.860 Actually, the recommendation really was use the standard logging module unless you have a reason not to because it's being supported everywhere. 00:20:09.170 --> 00:20:16.960 But I really liked the Logguru example of just how easy it looks to set up. 00:20:17.550 --> 00:20:18.560 And we've covered this before, 00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:21.320 but especially if you have a lot of people that are, 00:20:21.650 --> 00:20:24.480 you know, logging kind of looks complicated. 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.980 And if you've got a small team that all understand it, that's great. 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:29.460 But if you have a large team, 00:20:29.800 --> 00:20:33.340 it might be easier just to have an easier logging system. 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.020 And that's where I'm kind of leaning. 00:20:35.520 --> 00:20:38.940 And the setting up JSON output, 00:20:39.100 --> 00:20:40.840 you can say serialized equals true. 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:42.120 Now, I don't know. 00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:46.640 I think that means that converts every log record to a JSON output. 00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:47.640 So that might not be. 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:49.260 It's not logging JSON stuff. 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.780 It's actually the output is a JSON thing. 00:20:52.900 --> 00:20:54.360 So you can read it somewhere else, 00:20:54.820 --> 00:20:55.760 which also might be kind of cool. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:56.620 But I probably won't do that. 00:20:56.620 --> 00:20:57.520 Yeah, you could have two logs. 00:20:57.780 --> 00:21:01.980 You could set up a logger to a file that logs without serialize and one that logs. 00:21:02.020 --> 00:21:02.440 Oh, yeah. 00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:03.060 Right? 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:04.760 So you have like a parallel, 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:06.900 like a structured and an unstructured version. 00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:10.680 And when you just say log, it just hits all the attached destinations or whatever. 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:13.700 But the easy setup is what I'm looking for. 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.560 But there are some caveats. 00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:18.600 Like it's harder to have multiple loggers apparently, 00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:21.920 or at least multiple configurations of different loggers. 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.680 I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what the article says. 00:21:26.040 --> 00:21:26.860 One of the things that I, 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.560 that I didn't know about with this is that there's a logger catch 00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:31.820 and a logger exception. 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:35.380 So there's different ways the logger catches a decorator to, 00:21:35.540 --> 00:21:35.680 uh, 00:21:36.340 --> 00:21:37.820 to log exceptions, 00:21:38.180 --> 00:21:38.300 uh, 00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:40.120 nicely or into your, 00:21:40.300 --> 00:21:41.900 into whatever log file you have set up. 00:21:42.040 --> 00:21:42.160 Um, 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:42.620 so, 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.380 or logging stream or whatever. 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:45.080 Um, 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:47.580 and that looks neat because usually, 00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:47.980 you know, 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:49.320 Michael does no exceptions, 00:21:49.620 --> 00:21:50.160 but if there 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:50.740 is an exception, 00:21:51.040 --> 00:21:51.140 uh, 00:21:51.300 --> 00:21:52.860 be able to, might be nice to look at that. 00:21:53.060 --> 00:21:53.280 Anyway, 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:57.400 kind of a good rundown of what the logging libraries look like right now 00:21:58.030 --> 00:21:59.540 and now how to do structured output. 00:22:00.090 --> 00:22:01.300 There was a performance benchmark, 00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:02.540 which was interesting, 00:22:03.020 --> 00:22:08.340 that it compared the standard lib plus the JSON stuff with struct log and Logaroo. 00:22:09.220 --> 00:22:13.040 And Logaroo is about the same as the standard lib with JSON. 00:22:13.410 --> 00:22:18.440 And struct log is about twice as fast as in some cases. 00:22:19.080 --> 00:22:19.960 So that's interesting. 00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:20.340 Well, 00:22:20.550 --> 00:22:23.120 I use Logaroo by default these days. 00:22:23.250 --> 00:22:23.920 I really like it. 00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:25.620 But I've also used Logbook. 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.800 I don't really use the built-in logging. 00:22:27.910 --> 00:22:30.040 It just seems complicated than needed to me. 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:33.000 I've been doing the built-in logging mostly lately. 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:34.920 And I figured, 00:22:35.190 --> 00:22:36.700 you know, once I figure out like some, 00:22:37.020 --> 00:22:39.280 and I think I'm like with a lot of people that use it, 00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:41.040 I figured out one way that works for me, 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:42.980 and I just copy and paste and do that. 00:22:44.560 --> 00:22:44.940 All right. 00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:45.660 Well, 00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:46.960 those are our items. 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:49.480 Do you have any extras you want to talk about? 00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:50.360 Sure do. 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.720 I sure do. 00:22:52.020 --> 00:22:52.680 Hold on. 00:22:53.020 --> 00:22:54.480 I have two fun things. 00:22:54.710 --> 00:22:55.780 So first of all, 00:22:55.940 --> 00:22:56.900 let's do this in order. 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:03.700 A while ago, I told everyone that I have German subtitles available for all 283 hours of courses 00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:04.780 over at Talk Python. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.320 Training, 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:07.300 the courses we got. Well, 00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:09.160 now we have Spanish as well. 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:10.260 So I'm very 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:16.059 excited to announce if Spanish is your language and you want Spanish subtitles to accompany the 00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:18.220 English spoken version. 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:18.740 Well, 00:23:19.020 --> 00:23:21.080 click on Espanol and you'll be good to go right there. 00:23:21.270 --> 00:23:21.700 How about that? 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:22.440 That's cool. 00:23:22.850 --> 00:23:26.580 We took two and a half weeks of just grinding on translations to get it done, 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:27.240 but there it is. 00:23:27.310 --> 00:23:28.540 I think it's going to be really great. 00:23:28.850 --> 00:23:31.480 So what do you, what, you have German and Spanish now? Is that? 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:32.260 German and Spanish. 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:33.380 Okay, nice. 00:23:33.580 --> 00:23:34.960 Now I'm working on Portuguese. 00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:37.600 Actually, I've done a lot of research and I feel like Portuguese 00:23:37.830 --> 00:23:40.580 will be the most beneficial for the tech folks. 00:23:41.020 --> 00:23:41.540 Because you got to intersect, 00:23:41.710 --> 00:23:42.280 you got to look at 00:23:42.300 --> 00:23:47.240 two things. You got to look at how confident is the group of people who speak a certain language 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:48.380 in English, 00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:49.060 right? 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:50.020 So for example, 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.380 German, 00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:52.440 I did German first because I speak some German, 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:56.440 so I could kind of spot check it a little bit and it made some sense to me, you know? 00:23:57.380 --> 00:23:59.780 But German people are pretty good at English, 00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:01.740 especially tech-oriented ones. 00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:03.020 And so I was 00:24:03.070 --> 00:24:08.259 looking around and it turns out that I think Portuguese people are a little less comfortable 00:24:08.280 --> 00:24:12.140 with English than maybe German folks or I don't know, 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:12.540 French. 00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:13.840 So I'm like, all right, 00:24:14.020 --> 00:24:14.120 then 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:19.060 subtitles in their native language would be more helpful than not. So anyway, that's the kind of 00:24:19.060 --> 00:24:19.680 thing I'm trying to balance. 00:24:19.840 --> 00:24:20.960 So Portuguese is next. 00:24:21.340 --> 00:24:24.280 Apparently there's a lot of like Python is one of 00:24:24.510 --> 00:24:27.080 is super popular in Brazil and other places. 00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:28.060 So excited for that. 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:29.480 All right. So that's, that's one 00:24:29.820 --> 00:24:30.460 Spanish subtitles, 00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:31.520 not Portuguese, 00:24:31.670 --> 00:24:34.180 but Portuguese maybe in three or four weeks, something like that. 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:35.740 And a brand new course. 00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:36.840 I'm super excited about this. 00:24:37.360 --> 00:24:39.080 Python web security is the course. 00:24:39.580 --> 00:24:42.080 And it comes in two components. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.100 The OWASP top 10. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.900 So it goes through every one of the OWASP top 10 categories with two to three examples, 00:24:49.540 --> 00:24:51.140 sometimes in Flask, sometimes in Django, 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:52.720 sometimes in FastAPI, 00:24:53.060 --> 00:24:54.260 the bad version, the good version, 00:24:54.580 --> 00:24:56.860 just purely learning the security issues. 00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:03.579 And then we turn it into an agentic AI course and start searching for bugs in your own code 00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:04.900 using agentic AI. 00:25:05.230 --> 00:25:08.440 So we talked about how Mozilla found a bunch of bugs with Cloud, 00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:09.480 similar to that 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:13.460 with some really custom OWASP and Python web app focused things. 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:14.060 Yeah. 00:25:14.310 --> 00:25:15.160 So if you're publishing 00:25:15.550 --> 00:25:21.060 web apps or APIs on the internet, you definitely want to look at this because it basically gives 00:25:21.060 --> 00:25:27.460 you tooling and a blueprint on how to completely check your app for OWASP violations and beyond 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.740 using things like Claude Code and others. 00:25:30.070 --> 00:25:30.640 So you can, 00:25:30.810 --> 00:25:32.080 instead of hiring pen testers, 00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:35.720 you can do a first pass with this and then maybe find just a few more things. 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:35.980 If, 00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:40.100 if you're that kind of company that can afford $25,000 or whatever for a pen 00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:40.360 test, 00:25:40.520 --> 00:25:40.620 or, 00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:41.260 you know, 00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:42.860 you could at least do this if you were going to do nothing. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:44.200 So I think it's really helpful. 00:25:44.580 --> 00:25:44.640 Thanks. 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:45.180 All right. 00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:45.780 That's it for me. 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:46.320 Okay. 00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:47.460 I, 00:25:48.179 --> 00:25:49.400 I noticed this, 00:25:49.860 --> 00:25:55.300 there's an article that was on NPR or planet money, 00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:58.020 but I noticed it because on blue sky, 00:25:59.120 --> 00:26:01.160 shout out to where I got the information from. 00:26:01.420 --> 00:26:02.660 if my tabs work. 00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:04.140 Savannah Ostrowski. 00:26:04.520 --> 00:26:06.200 So posted this, 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:07.220 said it was surprising. 00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:09.900 This is a disturbing article, 00:26:10.220 --> 00:26:10.360 actually. 00:26:11.020 --> 00:26:12.940 It's what happened to women in computer science. 00:26:14.100 --> 00:26:18.080 And I didn't realize this was going on so long. 00:26:19.100 --> 00:26:19.660 So basically, 00:26:20.020 --> 00:26:22.340 modern computer science is dominated by men. 00:26:22.900 --> 00:26:26.519 The percent of women in computer science was... 00:26:27.800 --> 00:26:33.240 And also in the percent compared with other fields, like other physical sciences, 00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:33.800 law school, 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:34.500 medical school. 00:26:35.060 --> 00:26:36.620 So it's an interesting comparison. 00:26:36.990 --> 00:26:38.820 But in the mid 80s, 00:26:39.320 --> 00:26:44.640 it was at its height at like 36% or something were women. 00:26:45.080 --> 00:26:47.560 And it's just been going down since then. 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:47.900 And, 00:26:48.370 --> 00:26:52.940 you know, it's leveled off in like around 2008 or something like that. 00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:54.140 But this isn't good. 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:58.220 And so I think we need more women in computer science. 00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:08.560 And the analysis of this was really thought that this was because of the personal computers showing up in homes. 00:27:09.080 --> 00:27:16.000 And I guess families and teachers encouraging boys to play with computers more than they taught girls. 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:23.140 And also a commentary from one woman that when she first went into her first computer science class, 00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:24.960 she asked a question. 00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:29.360 And the professor stopped and looked at her and said, you should know that by now. 00:27:29.570 --> 00:27:31.160 But it was like the first class. 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:35.120 And so I actually, my wife had the same experience. 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:42.760 She took CS101 or something like that, or a basic class in high school. 00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:50.280 And all the rest of the kids had already played with it on their Macs at home or something like that. 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:51.700 And she was an intro. 00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:53.800 So I think we need to change this. 00:27:54.200 --> 00:28:02.820 I think hopefully it's changing because I think there's less actual personal computers in homes now than there were in the 90s. 00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:07.320 So I think maybe, hopefully it's leveled the playing field. 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:08.320 But who knows? 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:11.960 I'm glad that my daughter has already taken my, 00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.480 has taken some Python in school, 00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:16.160 but this is bad. 00:28:16.170 --> 00:28:16.480 I mean, 00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:18.820 software is not a boys or girls thing. 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:19.240 If anything, 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:20.640 the women started it. 00:28:20.860 --> 00:28:21.820 So we're, 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.000 we're late comers to the, 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:23.480 to the, 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:24.240 to the game. 00:28:24.540 --> 00:28:24.660 Anyway, 00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:26.360 we need to fix this as a community. 00:28:26.590 --> 00:28:27.700 So the, 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:28.740 the next thing, 00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:31.620 the other thing I want to share is that I am. 00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:33.620 A field report, 00:28:33.800 --> 00:28:34.000 Brian. 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:35.140 So at PyCon, 00:28:35.560 --> 00:28:36.620 I spoke to, 00:28:36.690 --> 00:28:39.320 I was speaking to several women and they, 00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:46.480 said just talking to each other something like there is a very good representation of women at 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:52.360 this conference now and 10 years ago it wasn't like that and i i feel that's great and it's so 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:58.100 it's really encouraging at least in the python space but in general i agree that the graph 00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:03.400 is bad and it doesn't need to be that way i also wonder like a lot we get a lot of uh programmers 00:29:03.530 --> 00:29:08.860 from other fields though not necessarily computer science so i wonder if um maybe we need to but it 00:29:08.820 --> 00:29:10.080 It does say physical sciences. 00:29:10.820 --> 00:29:13.840 Maybe we're getting a lot of our women coders from other fields. 00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:14.540 I don't know. 00:29:14.770 --> 00:29:15.460 I do think so. 00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:23.460 You know, my daughter was learning to do like data science-y stuff in her psychology field. 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:24.340 And psychology, 00:29:24.510 --> 00:29:26.360 I think, has more women than men in it, 00:29:26.620 --> 00:29:26.700 right? 00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:31.020 And so to the extent that like the data science side brings people in, I think there's a really 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.100 interesting, Python is super interesting because it brings people in from all these different 00:29:34.560 --> 00:29:34.620 disciplines. 00:29:34.830 --> 00:29:36.240 And it's not just a, unlike, 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.700 let's say, Go or See, 00:29:38.100 --> 00:29:38.160 right? 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:39.780 That's like a straight path. 00:29:40.060 --> 00:29:42.560 You start in programming and you end in this location, right? 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:44.320 Whereas with Python, 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.740 it's got a much more diversity of sources, 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:49.240 not necessarily people or genders, 00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:53.040 but like a diversity of different backgrounds that you come from to get into it. 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:55.420 So I think that might have something to do with it as well, which is good. 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:57.240 Different generational things too. 00:29:57.600 --> 00:29:59.300 I know we need to move on, 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:04.040 but I remember when I was doing teaching at university, 00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:11.300 having some of the older students come in and not knowing i would i i was guilty of just expecting 00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:16.400 a lot of people to know a lot of the basics um know how to do word or excel or something like 00:30:16.520 --> 00:30:22.860 that and um and you don't people don't necessarily do that you can't assume anything really so yeah 00:30:23.100 --> 00:30:30.620 anyway um i am still working on the audio version of the uh the lean tdd book um and it's uh it's 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.699 coming along well but during in the process of doing a lot of the audio i've made some changes 00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:36.100 to the actual book. 00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.960 That's why I'm holding off on the official release 00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:40.060 because I want the audio 00:30:40.110 --> 00:30:42.840 and the official release to match. 00:30:43.280 --> 00:30:45.680 But a lot of changes have come in. 00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:46.440 Just, 00:30:46.650 --> 00:30:47.600 I published this morning, 00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:52.100 one of the things is separating out TDD with teams 00:30:52.520 --> 00:30:55.720 because the team aspects are different. 00:30:56.020 --> 00:30:57.480 So I both have an emphasis 00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:00.000 on acceptance tester and development 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.759 and then also how to apply those sorts of ATDD stuff 00:31:03.780 --> 00:31:05.000 to the lean concept. 00:31:05.780 --> 00:31:08.020 I also beefed up the AI chapter 00:31:08.560 --> 00:31:10.220 to talk about guardrails and security. 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:11.580 So just a little bit. 00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:11.960 Anyway, 00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:13.280 it's coming along well. 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:14.860 And I don't know. 00:31:15.540 --> 00:31:16.720 Who knows how long it'll take? 00:31:17.020 --> 00:31:18.500 My original plan was last January. 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:19.380 So we'll see. 00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:20.180 Or, 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:21.540 you know, January a few months ago. 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:23.040 Congrats. 00:31:23.260 --> 00:31:23.500 That's awesome. 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:24.480 Thanks. 00:31:25.679 --> 00:31:26.900 So it's still going. 00:31:27.620 --> 00:31:29.180 Thanks to everybody that's contributed 00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:30.040 and helped out. 00:31:31.120 --> 00:31:32.680 What skill do you need to be an author? 00:31:33.120 --> 00:31:33.520 Persistence. 00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:40.600 yes humble humbleness yes uh speaking of persistence our joke is titled stop texting me 00:31:40.770 --> 00:31:49.000 so it's just a um just a screenshot of a chat conversation somebody has clawed in their they've 00:31:49.120 --> 00:31:54.860 clawed in their iphone i think it's an i it's an iphone um on their their messages right it says 00:31:55.100 --> 00:32:00.399 claude build a one billion dollar b2b sass platform from scratch make no mistake then it says red 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.660 dude for the thousandth time this is Claude from the pickleball league i am not ai 00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:13.820 ah that's funny and then of course there's comments there are definitely comments so 00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:17.880 instead it doesn't i think i said it this way but it's not spelled out dude for the thousand 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:24.239 time this is Claude it's not the thousandth time so someone comments is it a legal requirement 00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:26.800 that someone named Claude should be able to spell correctly. 00:32:29.320 --> 00:32:29.700 And then, 00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:30.420 yeah, 00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:31.220 I don't know. 00:32:31.220 --> 00:32:32.180 It just goes on and on. 00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:33.000 This is funny. 00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:33.700 Yeah, anyway, 00:32:33.860 --> 00:32:34.960 comments are kind of fun too. 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:37.320 But for the thousandth time, 00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:39.060 this is Claude from the Pickleball League. 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:40.740 I am not AI building this. 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:42.560 That's funny. 00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:47.400 I would totally build them a really crappy B2B SaaS 00:32:47.980 --> 00:32:49.440 and just charge them a billion dollars. 00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:51.620 I can give you a billion dollar company. 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:53.380 You pay me a billion dollars, 00:32:53.540 --> 00:32:55.240 I'll give you something that earns at least a dollar. 00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.980 Just because you spend a lot of money building the company doesn't mean it's going to make a lot of money. 00:32:59.620 --> 00:32:59.980 Exactly. 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:01.360 There's no guarantees there. 00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:01.740 Yeah. 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:02.740 But anyway, 00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:05.160 as always, 00:33:05.560 --> 00:33:05.840 it's fun. 00:33:06.510 --> 00:33:08.120 And we'll talk to you later. 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:08.540 Yep. 00:33:08.840 --> 00:33:08.900 Thanks. 00:33:09.090 --> 00:33:09.220 Bye.