WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.060 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds. 00:00:05.060 --> 00:00:09.260 This is episode 79, recorded May 23rd, 2018. I'm Michael Kennedy. 00:00:09.260 --> 00:00:10.160 And I'm Brian Okken. 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:10.960 Hey, Brian. How are you doing? 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.700 I'm doing great. 00:00:11.700 --> 00:00:15.160 Nice. I think, as always, we've got a bunch of fun stuff to talk about. 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:17.820 And we wouldn't be doing it without DigitalOcean. 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:21.840 A couple of reasons, but DigitalOcean is sponsoring this episode and a bunch of the upcoming ones. 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:23.160 So thank you to DigitalOcean. 00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:30.160 Get $100 off or $100 credit at pythonbytes.fm/DigitalOcean for new customers. 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:31.480 Tell them, tell you more about that later. 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:38.300 I would be totally surprised, Brian, if you wanted to cover something about, say, testing or pytest. 00:00:38.300 --> 00:00:43.520 Yeah, yeah. So pytest 3.6.0 just got announced. 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.080 So 360 for pytest. 00:00:46.360 --> 00:00:58.220 And this is like an inside baseball kind of release because there's not a lot that if I think 80% of the people using pytest won't see a difference. 00:00:58.220 --> 00:01:01.920 But, however, this was a big deal for the team. 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:09.160 Essentially, it's a revamp of the implementation of the marker system and the data type that was used to hold the markers. 00:01:09.160 --> 00:01:11.160 So there is a couple other things. 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:16.280 That's the big thing that's going on in the 3.6.0 release is reworking of the markers in it. 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:21.860 And there's a list on their release notes of all the different defects that they fixed with this. 00:01:21.860 --> 00:01:35.240 The takeaway for a lot of people is if you were using, if you're writing a plug-in or something or using the plug-in features and using getmarker to find out which markers are applied to a particular function, 00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:41.600 the getmarker is deprecated, there's a new API, there's itermarkers and getclosestmarker. 00:01:41.600 --> 00:01:45.300 And, yeah, we'll have a link in the show notes to read more on that. 00:01:45.300 --> 00:01:51.680 So most of it's a plug-in writers change, API change, but it's exciting. 00:01:51.680 --> 00:02:00.440 And I'm excited for the team to get that out because kind of like the Django 2 release, it's about maintenance and going forward. 00:02:00.440 --> 00:02:01.880 And so that's great. 00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:06.360 There is one more feature that we, from a couple other things, a breakpoint. 00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:09.920 The pytest is supporting the breakpoint functionality in 3.7. 00:02:09.920 --> 00:02:12.520 And that is brought to you by our friend Anthony Shaw. 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:13.460 So he put that in. 00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:14.060 Oh, nice. 00:02:14.060 --> 00:02:19.860 Yeah, he's doing a lot of work on Python 3.7 because rumor is he may be doing a course on Python 3.7. 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:20.860 So awesome. 00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:22.200 He was able to bring it over here. 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:34.340 And a couple other smaller things like the, apparently, I had never run into this, but if you have an assertion failure on equality and the only thing different is white space, it's kind of hard to tell. 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:38.300 So they now escape characters too. 00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:42.920 So you can see what the white space difference is a little bit better, which is kind of cool. 00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:43.440 I've never run into that. 00:02:43.440 --> 00:02:44.240 That's a little hard. 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:44.980 You print it on. 00:02:44.980 --> 00:02:46.080 You're like, those are the same. 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:47.080 No, no. 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:49.220 That's two spaces, not one right there. 00:02:49.220 --> 00:02:49.620 Yeah. 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:53.980 So for the main port, I wanted to get this out to as many people as possible. 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:59.860 So if you are depending on reading markers in your internal code, pay attention to this. 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:01.040 So that's it. 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.300 Yeah, it sounds like a nice cleanup of the internal APIs for extension writers. 00:03:04.300 --> 00:03:07.180 And that's always good because that probably means more extensions. 00:03:07.180 --> 00:03:09.160 Extensions are more likely to be built. 00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:09.400 Yep. 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:09.900 Sounds good. 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.960 So have we talked about GUIs, Python GUIs on this podcast? 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:15.080 I'm not sure if we have. 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:15.860 We probably should. 00:03:15.860 --> 00:03:16.580 Yeah. 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:17.260 We probably should. 00:03:17.260 --> 00:03:17.860 Yeah, let's do that. 00:03:17.860 --> 00:03:21.680 So there's a lot of stuff going on. 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:27.740 Part of the reason I went on that rant is because stuff needs to be happening there, but also because some things are happening. 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:33.240 Like we had the WX Python Phoenix release, which is kind of a rebirth of WX Python, which is really great. 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:36.980 Well, we also have the same thing going on for QT. 00:03:36.980 --> 00:03:40.020 So for a while, there was a sort of a split. 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:41.940 There was PyQT. 00:03:41.940 --> 00:03:43.160 There was PySide. 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:44.080 There was PySide2. 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:45.080 There are all these ways. 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.320 They defended it on different versions of QT. 00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:49.520 And it was kind of just generally a mess. 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:55.800 So the QT company is now officially making something called QT for Python, 00:03:56.040 --> 00:04:02.600 which as far as I can tell is more or less like a rebirth of PySide2 for what that's worth. 00:04:02.600 --> 00:04:09.500 So it's really nice that the company that makes QT, the cross-platform GUI framework, 00:04:09.500 --> 00:04:11.860 is like really dedicating itself to Python. 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:12.280 Yeah. 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:17.400 One of the things that I think is cool about the QT space is they have the QT designer. 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:23.420 And I think that's really nice and important for, you know, like I have a visual way to design the UI. 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:27.940 I know you can write code and say the position is 20, 20 and it stretches this wide. 00:04:27.940 --> 00:04:32.360 But like that is not the same as draggy, droppy, press the button. 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:33.480 You know what I mean? 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:37.080 So I got a lot of I'm pretty excited about this, let's say. 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:38.540 So that's really cool. 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:44.680 They basically are keeping it super similar to the QT C++ API where that makes sense. 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:50.280 So like if you read documentation about C++, which is the native language for QT, 00:04:50.280 --> 00:04:55.640 if you replace the pointer dereference, so the arrow, the dash arrow, 00:04:55.640 --> 00:04:59.400 to replace that with a dot, you know, that may well be the Python API. 00:04:59.400 --> 00:04:59.860 Hmm. 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:00.500 Okay. 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:01.080 Which is good. 00:05:01.080 --> 00:05:06.460 But some of the problem, some of the drawbacks, let's say that are like it doesn't necessarily leverage the Pythonic features. 00:05:06.460 --> 00:05:13.180 So like maybe you call a function to do a thing rather than put a decorator on to something else, things like that. 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:18.800 One thing that is nice is a lot of these UI frameworks are super painful to install, right? 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.540 You can install them on the system and then they don't work so well. 00:05:22.200 --> 00:05:30.680 Maybe there's like some big long compilation step like WX Python takes forever to pip install it onto Ubuntu. 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:32.360 The last time I tried doing that. 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:38.520 So they're planning on shipping a wheels version of QT, which before you had to get like some separate installer or something. 00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:44.580 So that'll be pretty sweet that you'll just be able to pip install your thing and it'll come with the foundational stuff you need. 00:05:44.580 --> 00:05:45.280 That's exciting. 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:46.320 Yeah, that is pretty cool, right? 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:54.480 So, I mean, I really hope that the company behind QT putting a big effort into this is going to mean like finally a polished version. 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:56.780 So we'll see. 00:05:56.780 --> 00:06:00.980 I think the licensing might still be GPL and LGPL. 00:06:00.980 --> 00:06:04.420 So as a combination, take your pick. 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:08.900 I'm not sure what the variations are exactly there, but I don't know. 00:06:08.900 --> 00:06:11.440 I'd like to see something more permissive, but who knows? 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:13.560 Still nice to see some progress here. 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:15.360 So do you know, I was trying to find it. 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:20.620 Do you know the projected release date for the official QT for Python? 00:06:20.620 --> 00:06:21.380 Or is that? 00:06:21.380 --> 00:06:27.640 They're talking about, so the article I'm linking to, it's a blog post calling Hello QT for Python. 00:06:27.640 --> 00:06:30.280 And they say they're working on a technology preview. 00:06:30.280 --> 00:06:32.900 So that's all I've seen. 00:06:32.900 --> 00:06:37.200 But they don't seem to have any further information that I easily found. 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:38.320 It may be somewhere else. 00:06:38.940 --> 00:06:45.080 Yeah, so it'll be, it does say it'll be available under GPL, LGPL, and commercial licenses. 00:06:45.080 --> 00:06:51.000 It talks about when development started and stuff like that, but it doesn't seem to have like a release date. 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.140 So there it is. 00:06:52.340 --> 00:06:52.960 All right, cool. 00:06:52.960 --> 00:06:53.260 Nice. 00:06:53.260 --> 00:07:01.500 Well, speaking of sneak peeks on things, we've got, we've talked about MongoDB, the 4.0 release that's coming. 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:05.140 We've talked about that before, but now you can play with it. 00:07:05.340 --> 00:07:11.620 So the 4.0, 4.0, RCA zero is now available. 00:07:11.620 --> 00:07:13.460 It's the very zeroth version of the RCA. 00:07:13.460 --> 00:07:13.780 Yes. 00:07:13.780 --> 00:07:14.900 There's a lot of zeros there. 00:07:14.900 --> 00:07:15.600 Yeah. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:23.880 So that is out and ready for testing so people can actually get their hands on it and try working the, again, the big news for this. 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:29.740 There's a lot of new features, but the big news is ACID transactions and multi-document. 00:07:29.740 --> 00:07:31.840 Multi-document ACID transactions. 00:07:31.840 --> 00:07:33.580 Yes, that's a pretty big deal. 00:07:33.580 --> 00:07:35.820 And I actually don't know if this is a big deal. 00:07:35.820 --> 00:07:40.860 Well, there's a lot of things here, but non-blocking secondary reads, I don't even know if I know what that means. 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:49.180 So the idea with the non-blocking secondary reads is one of the ways you can set up MongoDB is in a, what's called a replica set. 00:07:49.180 --> 00:07:53.260 So there's like a primary thing that you read and write to. 00:07:53.260 --> 00:07:59.200 And then there are other ones which are constantly just staying in sync with that server. 00:07:59.200 --> 00:07:59.660 Okay. 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:00.940 There's a couple of benefits to that. 00:08:00.940 --> 00:08:04.320 Like you could put them into, say, different data centers. 00:08:04.320 --> 00:08:12.040 The primary thing is if like for some reason the main server, the primary server fails, it'll automatically switch to one of the secondary ones. 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.760 So it's kind of like a failover redundancy sort of thing as well. 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:28.380 But you can configure it in a way that you can say, I would like to read from the non-primary database as a way of like adding read scalability. 00:08:28.380 --> 00:08:35.780 So like if I have five servers in the cluster, if I don't do anything, I can only talk to the one, the primary one as a single server. 00:08:36.340 --> 00:08:39.040 And I get no boost of concurrency, let's say. 00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:47.780 But if you say, I want to read from the others, well, then all of a sudden there's like, you're sort of farming that out across six different, you know, servers, primary plus the other five or whatever. 00:08:47.780 --> 00:08:48.940 Right. 00:08:48.940 --> 00:08:52.140 That used to block for consistency reasons. 00:08:52.140 --> 00:08:57.040 And now apparently they found a different way to ensure consistency, maybe because of the transactions. 00:08:57.040 --> 00:09:01.700 Anyway, that's a long, long explanation for what I think that means. 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:03.660 That does make sense. 00:09:03.660 --> 00:09:04.260 And that's cool. 00:09:04.760 --> 00:09:13.280 At least I knew, I know that there are a lot of people that choose a SQL database over a document database, mostly because of the lack of transactions. 00:09:13.280 --> 00:09:17.100 And so that's one of the reasons why I brought this up, because I'm excited about transactions. 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:21.040 Yeah, I think that's super exciting as well for the reason you just said. 00:09:21.040 --> 00:09:32.980 What I do think is interesting is as people get to more serious applications, they get to a place where often they give up transactions anyway for sort of concurrency. 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:44.460 Right. Like, you know, if I go to Amazon, it's not like, and I go to order something, it's not just going to lock all of Amazon while I interact with, you know, my order. 00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:47.440 What it's going to do is like, say, we'll place the order. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:55.020 And if it happens to be that actually the thing you ordered sort of sold out just at the moment that you pressed it, you'll get like a message or something. 00:09:55.020 --> 00:09:57.740 Right. Like, hey, sorry, we couldn't fulfill it or whatever. 00:09:57.740 --> 00:09:58.520 Here's your refund. 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:03.360 So there's a lot of these sort of compensation things that get put into like high scalability stuff. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:06.080 I just grabbed Amazon as an example. 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:07.140 I don't really know how they work. 00:10:07.140 --> 00:10:15.000 But, you know, there's a lot of these large sites that sort of don't use full on transactions in the same sense that other ones do. 00:10:15.100 --> 00:10:16.060 So it's pretty interesting. 00:10:16.060 --> 00:10:22.920 It's interesting in that I don't really think transactions are something I'm going to be using in any of my sites. 00:10:22.920 --> 00:10:27.760 They just don't really seem to be necessary with a few possible exceptions. 00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:29.980 I'll get to what those might be in a little bit. 00:10:29.980 --> 00:10:36.680 But, yeah, I think you're right that people, when people feel they need it, or there are a few situations where you really do need it. 00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:37.540 This is super interesting. 00:10:37.540 --> 00:10:46.740 One other thing that's kind of cool that's not a 4.0 thing, but it's in a 3.6, which is the one right before this, as far as I know, is actually the streaming API. 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:59.380 So if I've got, like, say, WebSockets or something that I want notification of, like, push of change to the database, you could, like, run a query and say, I want to stream new results that hit this query. 00:10:59.380 --> 00:11:07.140 And then as stuff is inserted to the database that matches, it'll git pushed out to you instead of re-polling the database. 00:11:07.140 --> 00:11:10.640 So suppose I connect to a chat server and I set up WebSockets. 00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:20.340 So you could, like, literally subscribe to, like, these change streams on, like, the conversation record, and you would just get them pushed back down instantly without any polling end-to-end. 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:20.780 Okay. 00:11:20.780 --> 00:11:21.400 That's pretty cool. 00:11:21.400 --> 00:11:24.660 It's kind of like RethinkDB's feature, primary feature was. 00:11:24.660 --> 00:11:38.300 I guess where I would probably use transactions a lot, and it's not really transactions, but because of transactions you can do this, is I believe 4.0 also includes rollback checkpoints. 00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:54.300 For instance, you can grab a replica of a big database or something, and, like, for instance, like, during testing, you can have a starting point, do a whole bunch of transactions on it, query it, and then roll back to a previous state. 00:11:54.300 --> 00:11:55.420 Yeah, that is pretty cool. 00:11:55.420 --> 00:11:59.860 And I think maybe that secondary non-blocking read stuff has to do with that as well. 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:01.740 You sort of begin a transaction and you start reading. 00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:02.180 Yeah. 00:12:02.180 --> 00:12:02.620 Anyway. 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:03.400 Yeah, yeah, very cool. 00:12:03.400 --> 00:12:05.520 So I'm glad to see that that's coming along. 00:12:05.520 --> 00:12:12.880 I feel like the NoSQL document database world and the relational world are kind of, like, merging. 00:12:12.880 --> 00:12:16.740 Like, they're getting closer to each other in a lot of ways, right? 00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:19.260 We have Postgres getting JSON stuff. 00:12:19.260 --> 00:12:21.280 We get MongoDB getting transactions. 00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:25.240 And they're all kind of sort of growing and intersecting in interesting ways. 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.920 Speaking of interesting, DigitalOcean's pretty interesting. 00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:29.380 They're doing a lot of good stuff for us. 00:12:29.380 --> 00:12:36.380 So, like, the files that you're getting when you download the podcast, the website, all that stuff is running on DigitalOcean servers. 00:12:36.380 --> 00:12:39.320 And I'm a super, super happy customer of theirs. 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.180 And they're sponsoring the show as well. 00:12:42.180 --> 00:12:49.340 So one of the things that's cool, maybe I mentioned this a while ago, Brian, is their sort of one-click app server configuration. 00:12:49.340 --> 00:13:01.060 So if I want to create, say, a server with MongoDB all configured, I can go there and say, create me a droplet with this version of Mongo or with this other web framework set up. 00:13:01.060 --> 00:13:07.880 And it'll automatically create all the server configuration and have everything set up and ready to go within, like, 60 seconds. 00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:09.120 So really, really nice. 00:13:09.800 --> 00:13:17.260 And probably the biggest thing, if you are not using DigitalOcean, you can get a $100 credit by going to pythonbytes.fm/DigitalOcean. 00:13:17.260 --> 00:13:18.500 So that's a pretty good deal. 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:19.460 Yeah, that's great. 00:13:19.460 --> 00:13:19.980 Yeah, awesome. 00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:28.460 So if you're looking for a nice, affordable, fair, and very fast server hosting, check them out, pythonbytes.fm/DigitalOcean. 00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:32.240 So, Michael, have we talked about PipInf in the show before? 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.300 If I recall correctly, I think we were confused about PipInf. 00:13:35.300 --> 00:13:36.780 I was confused about PipInf. 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:50.920 Basically, you know, or surprised, maybe is the right word, that PipInf became sort of the officially recommended way of the packaging authority in Python to manage packages. 00:13:50.920 --> 00:13:52.180 And I'm like, oh, when did that happen? 00:13:52.180 --> 00:13:53.140 That was pretty interesting. 00:13:53.140 --> 00:13:55.280 So there's been a lot of debate. 00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:58.000 And you said there was kind of a coarse Reddit thread. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:59.940 Like, imagine Reddit was unkind to people. 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:01.020 Could you imagine? 00:14:01.020 --> 00:14:02.620 Right, yeah. 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.100 That's unfortunate. 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:07.620 But I think it's too bad that that kind of stuff happens. 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:11.340 And maybe we should all just speak up like, hey, like, that comment is out of bounds, right? 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:13.340 Anyway, I'm not going to link to it. 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:14.120 I don't want to encourage it. 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:19.180 But I do want to link to this thing called PipInf Review after using it in production. 00:14:19.180 --> 00:14:24.560 So there's this team that used PipInf in production since November 2017. 00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:25.240 So what is that? 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:26.020 A little over half a year? 00:14:26.020 --> 00:14:27.580 Maybe almost exactly half a year. 00:14:28.540 --> 00:14:32.060 And this sort of comes, they talk about, this is what worked for us. 00:14:32.060 --> 00:14:34.320 This is what wasn't working so well for us. 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:44.320 And in the end, they're like, at no point did anyone in the team ever mention getting read a PipInf, which actually is a pretty strong statement, apparently. 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.900 So if no, we said, no, we've got to get rid of this. 00:14:46.900 --> 00:14:49.380 It's just like, ah, it's not quite working in some way. 00:14:49.380 --> 00:14:50.840 So here, I'll give you the rundown. 00:14:51.380 --> 00:14:53.680 The article starts off pretty accurately. 00:14:53.680 --> 00:14:56.080 It says, the current state of Python's packaging is awful. 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.340 I don't think anyone would disagree with that. 00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:01.360 The problem is recognized, and there are many attempts to solve the mess. 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.380 And PipInf was the first, and it did get a lot of traction. 00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:06.600 But not everyone loved it. 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:12.780 And he said, one of the areas where PipInf can be a challenge is for libraries. 00:15:12.780 --> 00:15:19.700 So PipInf is more built for managing the dependency of an application. 00:15:20.040 --> 00:15:24.300 But if you're a library author, that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. 00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:25.800 Yeah, I'm on the fence on that. 00:15:25.800 --> 00:15:26.040 Sure. 00:15:26.040 --> 00:15:27.100 Sorry, I forgot the guy's name. 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:34.460 The reason that he said this was basically supporting multiple environments goes against PipInf's philosophy. 00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:35.640 Right? 00:15:35.640 --> 00:15:40.980 So they want a deterministic, reproducible application environment. 00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:54.100 But, you know, if you're going to do that for, say, PyPy and Python 2.7 and Python 3.6 or whatever, well, then it doesn't really work, potentially. 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:54.800 Right? 00:15:54.800 --> 00:15:58.460 Because it's, you know, once exact hashes of the exact libraries. 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:01.280 And if those don't match, then you're out of luck. 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:01.560 Right? 00:16:01.760 --> 00:16:02.960 So that's a challenge. 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:04.380 I think that's the primary challenge. 00:16:04.380 --> 00:16:04.700 Yeah. 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:05.100 Yeah. 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:07.080 And I agree with that. 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.820 And it's just partly I think it's a miscommunication. 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:15.800 PipInf was never intended to work for every library sort of use. 00:16:15.800 --> 00:16:20.180 Because libraries, by definition, they don't have their dependencies pinned. 00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:23.620 It's at the application level where you pin your dependencies. 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.100 So you say there's this miscommunication. 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:27.760 And I definitely think you're right. 00:16:27.760 --> 00:16:34.060 Because when I looked at PipInf on GitHub, I really saw that as, you know, the statement. 00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:40.240 PipInf is the officially recommended tool for managing application dependencies from PyPA. 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:46.540 As PipInf is the officially recommended tool for managing Python dependencies. 00:16:46.540 --> 00:16:50.740 Where really, like, the application should have been bolded, underlined in all caps. 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:52.740 Something to that effect, right? 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:53.200 Right. 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.240 So pretty interesting. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.660 But, yeah, I think, you know, generally their review of it was good. 00:16:59.660 --> 00:17:01.460 So I'll try to give you the quick rundown here. 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:08.420 So pip file and pip file.lock really are superiority to requirements.txt by a ton. 00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:14.440 And the guy said, hey, I first disliked having FlakeAid and a security checking tool all built into one thing. 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:15.580 But I think it's actually great. 00:17:15.580 --> 00:17:18.800 Installing from private repositories works really well. 00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:20.660 Creating a new pip file is easy. 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:28.840 No problems introducing PipInf to new users or installing from a mixture of indexes and Git repos. 00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:30.240 That was all really good. 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:36.380 Virtual Enf or virtual Envy is much easier to get into and understand now. 00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:37.140 Let's see. 00:17:37.180 --> 00:17:40.460 Dependencies can be easily installed into a system like Docker. 00:17:40.460 --> 00:17:44.560 And finally, like I said, no one proposed getting rid of it. 00:17:44.560 --> 00:17:49.340 They were just a few edge cases, mostly around the library side of things. 00:17:49.340 --> 00:17:51.020 So, yeah, pretty good. 00:17:51.080 --> 00:17:55.660 But if you're thinking about using PipInf in production, you know, check this article out. 00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:59.660 It's kind of got some good discussion and a lot of follow-up as well. 00:17:59.800 --> 00:18:18.920 I want to add that I was, for library development, I am going to start, I haven't been using it, but I'm going to start using it, not from the standpoint of handling all of the dependencies for the library dependencies, but more because the setup.py does that. 00:18:18.980 --> 00:18:23.540 But the transitive dependencies and also mostly the developer dependencies. 00:18:23.540 --> 00:18:32.100 So, PipInf has a developer feature where you can either create the environment for running or create the environment for development, and those can be different. 00:18:32.100 --> 00:18:38.840 And traditionally, we've had a requirements underscore dev or something like that, but it's just you kind of have to know it's there. 00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:41.740 So, for that reason, I'm going to try PipInf. 00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:52.940 The other reason is the --run flag to be able to run in the environment without activating the environment is going to be useful for things like Jenkins runs and things like that. 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:54.320 I'm going to give it a shot. 00:18:54.320 --> 00:18:57.420 I don't have a report yet, but I'm going to start using this as well. 00:18:57.420 --> 00:18:58.160 Yeah, sounds good. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.280 You're going to have to give us a report after a while, though. 00:19:00.280 --> 00:19:02.000 Yeah, definitely. 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.040 Nice. 00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:03.720 All right. 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:10.960 So, you've got some stuff for GitHub Flow, the whole sort of working in GitHub, PRs, submitting issues, open source goodness, yeah? 00:19:11.080 --> 00:19:19.580 I've got a development team that's migrating to both a lot of changes in our development workflow, but one of the things is using Git more. 00:19:19.580 --> 00:19:33.540 And we're using GitLab at work, but this is – so a lot of these – some of these – I didn't use GitHub for open source projects, of course, but here's an article called 15 Tips to Enhance Your GitHub Workflow or GitHub Flow. 00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:37.440 And a lot of these apply to both Git and GitHub and GitLab. 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.940 Some of them are GitHub only. 00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:49.500 But there's some things that you just sort of need to know about the culture around Git and GitHub and GitLab and everything that you don't actually – it isn't obvious from the start. 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.380 So, I like having an article that calls out a lot of these things. 00:19:52.380 --> 00:20:05.880 Like, one of the talks about – I'm not using projects yet, but I'd like to try to use projects to prioritize issues and maybe track progress and plan for what's going in which release and stuff. 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.420 Maybe if that's built in, might as well try it. 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:10.160 I'm using tags on issues. 00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:11.780 I've started using that. 00:20:11.780 --> 00:20:19.440 I know we have tags on some – a lot of open source projects like, what is it, Help Wanted and things like that. 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:20.620 There's some standard ones. 00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:22.240 Getting to know those are good. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.020 Templates are something that really – so a lot of the stuff isn't stuff I know about yet. 00:20:27.020 --> 00:20:28.920 It's stuff I want to start using. 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:40.420 Templates are something – like if somebody does a pull request against your project, having some predefined stuff filled in for them to know what to fill in. 00:20:40.760 --> 00:20:44.640 And the default template is sometimes kind of lame for certain projects. 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:50.440 Like, I've got a library that it – the default one asks for, like, operating system. 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.460 Well, I don't really care. 00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:54.620 It's not going to affect the library I'm using. 00:20:54.620 --> 00:21:01.980 If the issue is really hard to reproduce, I'll ask somebody and say, hey, this is – I'm trying to reproduce it here, and I can't reproduce it. 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:03.920 Anyway, there's a whole bunch of great things. 00:21:04.120 --> 00:21:10.440 I squashed down – one of the things I didn't know about at first was squashing pull requests and squashing commits. 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:17.460 That's something that is totally foreign to – if you're coming to get from other revision control systems. 00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:20.380 So there's just a good list of a whole bunch of goodies. 00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:21.400 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:26.380 And I like the automated tests and checks on pull requests. 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:27.400 Like, that's really nice. 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:37.400 Like, if I do a PR to someone else's repo and, like, my PR automatically gets tested, like, flakated or whatever they're, you know, wanting to have checked, right? 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.720 That can tell me right away before they get back to me, oh, there's a step I missed. 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:42.820 Let me fix that. 00:21:42.820 --> 00:21:48.140 And then, you know, resubmit the PR or just update the PR and then have it rerunning. 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:49.300 Okay, now everything's good. 00:21:49.300 --> 00:21:56.900 And I'm sure that on the other side of things, if someone is running a project and it's already passing all that before they even get to it, they can take it more seriously. 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.200 Yeah, and that helps you with even, you know, you're splitting up branches. 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:08.160 And so you can have tests running on multiple branches, which is nice if you have a long-running development feature. 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:18.960 And then one of the things I want to play with here is there's a discussion about pre-commit hooks and hooking things like black up to your pre-commit hook to make sure the styling is correct. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.460 Oh, nice. 00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:21.400 Yeah, instead of asking, just change it. 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:21.900 Yeah. 00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:23.420 Your styling is wrong. 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:24.220 You need to break that line. 00:22:24.220 --> 00:22:24.520 Fine. 00:22:24.520 --> 00:22:25.280 We did that for you. 00:22:25.280 --> 00:22:26.000 Yeah. 00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:27.260 That's pretty cool. 00:22:27.260 --> 00:22:28.140 All right. 00:22:28.140 --> 00:22:31.280 So the last one I got, Brian, is just a feel-good story. 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:34.760 Python versus legacy Python, that type of thing. 00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:37.380 So Pandas goes Python only. 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:38.960 No more legacy Python for Pandas. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:39.420 Wow. 00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:40.180 That's cool. 00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:41.080 That's a pretty big deal. 00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:45.660 Like, Pandas in the data science space is one of the true foundational items. 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:49.160 Maybe it's more popular than any of the others. 00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:51.480 I feel like people almost always start with Pandas. 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.220 And then once they get their data processed, they, like, move to another library. 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:58.800 So Pandas going Python 3 only is really, really awesome. 00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:00.640 I got this off of Twitter from Randy Olson. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:01.600 Thank you for that. 00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:04.300 And basically, they're following NumPy's lead. 00:23:04.300 --> 00:23:06.520 Remember, NumPy is going Python 3 only. 00:23:06.520 --> 00:23:12.500 So officially starting January 1st, 2019, which is not that far away. 00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:13.520 Seven months-ish? 00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:14.120 Six months? 00:23:14.120 --> 00:23:17.080 Pandas will drop support for legacy Python. 00:23:17.080 --> 00:23:20.440 And this includes no backports of security or bug fixes. 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.160 The final release will be the day before. 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.520 And that one's going to support Python 2. 00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:27.100 And we're just going to leave it there, apparently. 00:23:27.100 --> 00:23:27.960 Yeah. 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:34.400 So I feel like data science has got a little bit of an edge on the Python 3 story for everyone. 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:47.360 And partly because they've come into the ecosystem as a large group more recently than, say, the web developers or the automator folks who have been around for a long time. 00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:50.960 Like, the data science stuff has really exploded 2012 and onward. 00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.600 So it was a slightly easier choice, I think. 00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:54.360 Yeah, I think so. 00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:54.740 Yeah. 00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:55.240 Pretty cool. 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.020 All right. 00:23:56.020 --> 00:23:57.020 Well, that's it for our news. 00:23:57.020 --> 00:23:58.180 Anything personal you want to share? 00:23:58.180 --> 00:23:58.820 No. 00:23:58.820 --> 00:24:02.160 I'm just excited to get back to, like, podcasting and stuff. 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:02.740 It's been good. 00:24:02.740 --> 00:24:03.120 I know. 00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:06.600 It was a lot of fun to do the live one, though, at PyCon, right? 00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:08.060 Like, nobody cheered for us today. 00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:10.120 Not the word anyway, right? 00:24:10.120 --> 00:24:12.140 It was so fun to just be in the eye and get the... 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:12.360 Yeah. 00:24:12.360 --> 00:24:14.060 And, like, nobody laughed at my jokes. 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:14.600 Yeah. 00:24:14.600 --> 00:24:16.220 Maybe they did. 00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:17.060 We'll just never know. 00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:18.500 Maybe we need, like, a sound. 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:18.920 Yeah. 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:20.460 Like, one of those fake audience tracks. 00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.380 No, that'll take away from the real ones. 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:23.720 We'll do some more live ones. 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:24.560 We're talking about it, right? 00:24:24.560 --> 00:24:25.320 Yeah, definitely. 00:24:25.320 --> 00:24:26.520 It was so fun. 00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:27.220 We want to do more. 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:27.500 Yeah. 00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:28.240 Maybe we can do some more. 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:28.940 We'll figure that out. 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:30.740 So are you excited? 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:32.740 It's GDPR Eve. 00:24:32.740 --> 00:24:33.100 Yeah. 00:24:33.100 --> 00:24:34.040 The only one... 00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:34.800 Well, yeah. 00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:36.940 I don't really know how that affects me. 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:42.100 But I'm telling people that's why I forget their name so quickly is because I'm complying with GDPR. 00:24:42.100 --> 00:24:42.760 Oh, man. 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:46.080 I have very mixed feelings about GDPR. 00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:50.100 Like, I'm a fan of privacy and respecting data stuff. 00:24:50.100 --> 00:24:54.880 I'm not a fan of some of the ways in which they're going about it. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:00.380 I mean, like, it's a tech requirement written by non-technical people, for starters. 00:25:00.380 --> 00:25:04.640 Do you have to change, like, for instance, the courses site of yours? 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:05.560 We have to. 00:25:05.560 --> 00:25:10.560 I've been doing nothing but 10 hours a day of GDPR programming all week. 00:25:10.560 --> 00:25:11.140 Oh, geez. 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:11.440 Yeah. 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:12.040 And I'm not done. 00:25:12.040 --> 00:25:13.040 I got one or two more days. 00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:18.740 And what drives me crazy about this is I'm an American company, 100% in America. 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:26.560 And, you know, like, that Europe has these rules that apply to us, which it's not about Europe or America. 00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:31.740 Like, what if India decides later that they have other rules that are inconsistent with what I've done for GDPR? 00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.820 And then Brazil has other... 00:25:33.820 --> 00:25:41.900 Like, I just think it's kind of crazy to say, like, lawmakers in one country can, like, impose their will on all of the world through these laws. 00:25:41.900 --> 00:25:42.540 So it's kind of funky. 00:25:42.540 --> 00:25:45.480 But I'm going to do it because they pretty much have to. 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:58.440 So basically, the reason I'm throwing this out there is if you run a site where you've got, like, say, a mailing list or people buy stuff or you collect user data, just be sure to be really careful and look into this. 00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:04.720 And also, we talked about environments, and we talked about pip-emf and various other bits of packaging. 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:11.100 So I just want to give a quick shout-out to the XKCD Python environment cartoon, which came out a few weeks ago. 00:26:11.100 --> 00:26:15.100 So that would be xkcd.com slash 1987. 00:26:15.100 --> 00:26:19.020 It's just about the sort of madness. 00:26:19.020 --> 00:26:24.740 So my Python environment has become so degraded that my laptop has been declared a super fun site. 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:27.400 It's got homebrew for Python. 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:29.280 It's got the OS Python Anaconda. 00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:32.800 It's got pip, another pip, easy install. 00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:34.660 Okay. 00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:36.020 It's pretty good, right? 00:26:36.020 --> 00:26:36.600 Yeah. 00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:36.880 Yeah. 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:45.960 I think we'll probably try to – I'm going to link to the – Kenneth Reitz's – I should just stop trying to pronounce names. 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:53.080 His PyCon talk because there was a lot of stuff in there about, like, the history of packaging that I didn't know about. 00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:54.700 So it's a good listen. 00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:56.200 Yeah, you should definitely link to that. 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:56.600 That's awesome. 00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:57.460 All right. 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:00.320 Well, thank you, Kenneth, for working on PipEmpf. 00:27:00.320 --> 00:27:03.780 And thank you, Brian, for sharing everything with all of our listeners. 00:27:03.780 --> 00:27:04.280 Thank you. 00:27:06.280 --> 00:27:08.000 Thank you for listening to Python Bytes. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.580 Follow the show on Twitter via at Python Bytes. 00:27:10.580 --> 00:27:13.460 That's Python Bytes as in B-Y-T-E-S. 00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:16.900 And get the full show notes at pythonbytes.fm. 00:27:16.900 --> 00:27:21.240 If you have a news item you want featured, just visit pythonbytes.fm and send it our way. 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.920 We're always on the lookout for sharing something cool. 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.320 On behalf of myself and Brian Okken, this is Michael Kennedy. 00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:30.940 Thank you for listening and sharing this podcast with your friends and colleagues.