Transcript #35: How developers change programming languages over time

00:00 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

00:05 This is episode 35, recorded July 18th, 2017. I'm Michael Kennedy.

00:11 And I'm Brian Okken.

00:12 And we've got some really cool stuff to start out with. Do you have any comments maybe to kick us off, Brian?

00:17 Well, I like to comment about just about everything.

00:20 But to kick off, we've got an article from, I think it's Philip Troner, and it's called Python Quirks Comments.

00:28 I kind of like this article. When you're looking at source code, there's definitely comments that start with pound that are obviously just comments to other coders.

00:37 But then also sometimes, since we have doc strings in there, some people have learned that you can just put strings or other objects in your code.

00:46 And as long as they're not referenced by anything else, it just acts like a comment.

00:51 But this is an article taking a look at the abstract syntax tree and also taking a look at timing them.

00:57 And obviously...

00:59 Yeah. The fundamental question was, is there a reason to prefer one over the other?

01:03 Is there a performance difference between them? Things like that, right?

01:06 Yeah, definitely.

01:07 And I have seen it even... I haven't seen it in a lot of big open source projects, but I've seen it in just random, like, Python code that I look at from coworkers or whatever.

01:17 People will comment out...

01:18 Even commenting out a chunk of code with the three quotes just to block it out.

01:23 It's not good.

01:24 It actually leaves that object in your code and can slow things down a bit.

01:29 Yeah. So he did a bunch of testing and the hash or pound comments that actually get grayed out, like, those literally do not appear in the abstract syntax tree.

01:38 So once the PYC file is generated, they're gone, right?

01:41 Like, they literally don't appear in the resulted executed code.

01:44 However, if you have, like, triple quote for doc strings, that actually gets set to the dunder doc property, I think.

01:52 But those appear, if you have other ones, those just execute, they get allocated, and then they immediately get dereferenced and garbage collected.

01:59 But those steps happen, right?

02:00 Yeah.

02:00 Yeah, one of the things that made me think about, because I've been adding, for the code examples for the book, I've been adding doc strings.

02:08 And I'm curious.

02:11 I'd like to do a similar test.

02:12 I think I might take his code example and do a similar test on, like, size of doc strings.

02:17 If you do, like, a, I don't know, a 10-character one-liner versus 100, 200 characters of a huge doc string, does it make a difference for performance at all?

02:28 Yeah, yeah.

02:28 Pretty interesting.

02:29 I'm definitely a fan of the hash comment unless, you know, it's literally for doc strings.

02:34 Yeah, and one of the things that, this is outside of the article, but I, in a comment recently, I can't remember where, a discussion about this was that doc strings are information for your user or for the user of a function or something.

02:50 But the compound or hash comments are information for a future developer, and I like that.

02:57 Yeah, that's the, imagine a psychopath who's having a bad day 10 years from now is inheriting your code, and they know where you live.

03:06 You want to leave them some comments to help them feel happy.

03:08 Yeah.

03:11 All right, so, you know what I get if I open up my terminal, I type python3-V.

03:17 I don't know, what do you get?

03:18 I get 362, because python362 is out, I think today even.

03:22 Awesome.

03:22 Yeah, very, very cool.

03:24 And I was blown away at how much stuff is in here.

03:28 And I think these are mostly fixes.

03:30 I didn't see, I don't think there were any new features.

03:33 I think that's coming in 37.

03:35 But holy moly, there are a lot of changes, and it's pretty interesting.

03:39 So I pulled out a few just to highlight, and I'm highlighting for a variety of reasons.

03:45 So I broke them in, well, they broke them in, too, and I grabbed them from four categories here.

03:50 There's a few others that I decided not to touch on, like changes to idle, don't care.

03:54 But security, that I very much care about.

03:59 So the security ones, we have these changes, and they've got a bunch of numbers.

04:03 You guys can look them up, but prevent environment variable injection into subprocesses on Windows.

04:09 So prevent other things from freaking out or taking over what the system looks like for Python.

04:16 Or this one is kind of scary.

04:19 Upgrade expat copy from 220 to 221 gets fixed.

04:24 You have multiple security vulnerabilities, and all these loops, integer overflow,

04:30 regressions of other bugs, counter hash flooding, all these things that are like, you know,

04:35 probably someone where in there, there's a really bad vulnerability.

04:39 Also parsing the host, URL lib, and things like that.

04:44 So there's a bunch of security fixes, not just, you know, features or whatever.

04:49 So if you can, you should probably install this.

04:52 Yeah, just definitely from my first glance at it this morning, it just seemed like it's just better for security and other changes to definitely install it.

05:02 But I didn't see anything that jumped out of like, oh, I was waiting for this.

05:06 Now I can use it or anything like that.

05:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:09 I don't think that I think this is only bug fixes and security fixes.

05:13 No features until 3.7.

05:15 Okay.

05:15 And maybe you run a Mac, right?

05:17 So maybe I'm just dense.

05:18 But to upgrade, you just download the new one and install it.

05:22 There isn't a way to just upgrade, is there?

05:24 Well, you can use brew.

05:25 I actually installed it off of python.org.

05:28 So to upgrade that version, I think you got to keep rolling.

05:31 You just get the next one and run it.

05:33 That's fine.

05:34 But if you brew install Python 3, then you can brew upgrade Python 3, which is kind of maybe what I'll do in my next Mac.

05:40 Or I don't know.

05:40 I'm happy with what I got now.

05:41 But I'm going to try to use a homebrew more.

05:43 I'm starting to love it.

05:44 I actually, so if you do, if you have 361 and you install 362, you just have both of them there, right?

05:50 Yes, I think so.

05:52 But certainly if I type Python 3, now that's 362.

05:55 Okay.

05:55 Well, I like having both around anyway for testing multiple versions, but.

05:59 Yeah, sure.

06:00 And then there's some things, some tools like virtual environment wrapper, but slightly different.

06:04 I'm forgetting the name right now.

06:05 That'll let you like get all the versions and flip between them and whatnot.

06:08 It's pretty cool.

06:09 All right.

06:09 All right.

06:09 So some other ones, core and built-in stuff like the parsing of f-strings with backslashes apparently is broken.

06:16 Segmentation faults when you are working with dictionaries.

06:19 Those are never used in Python anywhere.

06:21 When you're like changing them while searching, you know, if your Python just goes away, your web app keeps crashing, like all sorts of bad stuff.

06:28 Control C.

06:29 When you're inside of a yield from or a wait call gets fixed and all these different things.

06:35 So tons of fixes there.

06:36 The library gets race condition fixes for some signal delivery and wake up for file stuff.

06:44 The lib two to three now understands f-strings, race conditions, windows.

06:49 Oh my God.

06:50 This one is awesome.

06:51 If you work on windows or you teach people Python who work on windows, you can cheer for this.

06:55 This is amazing.

06:57 Windows now will locate msbuild.exe instead of vcvarsallbat.

07:03 It is so much more reliable to find msbuild on windows than it is that stupid old vcvarsallbat thing for like all the C compilations.

07:14 So that means pip install a thing on windows should get more reliable.

07:17 So there's about 40 more of these types of fixes.

07:22 So one, I wanted to share the news.

07:24 How awesome is this?

07:25 I also wanted to hit on some of those things, especially the security stuff, because we're coming up quickly on the end of legacy Python, right?

07:34 Yes.

07:34 Yeah.

07:34 Legacy Python has to have some of these in there.

07:37 Like people discovered these and now here are these problems that are uncovered.

07:41 In 2020, these problems are going to stay in Python 2.

07:44 So the sooner you can get to Python 3 so these changes keep coming to you rather than become just, oh, that's a security vulnerability.

07:50 Sorry, you have to live with that.

07:51 Just one more reason to upgrade to Python 3 for those holdouts out there.

07:56 Yeah, definitely.

07:57 And one of the things looking at this list, I just have to say, give a big thank you to everybody that worked on all this so that I don't have to work on things like this.

08:05 Yes, thank you.

08:06 That's awesome.

08:07 It's all getting better.

08:07 Yeah.

08:08 Cool.

08:08 All right.

08:09 Speaking of contributing to open source projects, a lot of us feel like we're not good enough or maybe we don't know enough or our experience isn't rich enough or whatever, right?

08:19 That's a huge problem.

08:20 Yeah.

08:20 I think everybody has gone through that.

08:23 I mean, definitely everybody that's now contributing to open source has had an initial time where they felt like whether they knew enough about something.

08:31 And so make sure I get her name right.

08:34 Adrienne Lowe, who does coding with knives and has spoken at a couple of PyCons and other places.

08:41 Yeah, she's great.

08:42 She wrote a contributing to open source projects.

08:46 Well, she wrote a thing on GitHub called Imposter Syndrome Disclaimer.

08:50 Essentially, it's in places where you have how to contribute to your project.

08:55 She'd like you to add this or think about adding this little disclaimer to people that maybe don't think that they're ready to do it.

09:04 And it's kind of great wording.

09:06 It has things including saying, I want your help.

09:09 No, really, I do.

09:10 There might be a little voice.

09:12 I'm just quoting right out of this.

09:14 There might be a little voice inside you that tells you that you're not ready, that you need to do one more tutorial or learn another framework or read a few more blog posts before you're ready.

09:24 But I assure you that's not the case and goes on to, like, tell you to point to your contributing guidelines and then also to comment about other stuff.

09:34 And here's another quote.

09:35 And you don't just have to write code.

09:37 You can help out by writing documentation tests or even giving feedback about this.

09:42 And we talked about this in one of our previous episodes of many ways you can contribute to open source projects.

09:48 But I think that this is a great idea to put it right in your contributing guidelines for your project.

09:54 Yeah, really nice work, Adrian.

09:55 If you guys were at PyCon, she was the host of the art museum dinner.

09:59 And this is really great.

10:01 She does a bunch for the community and contributes to many projects.

10:04 So I know she's been on both sides of this.

10:07 And I do think having this on your projects will help.

10:09 She'd like to collect examples.

10:11 So I've got a link.

10:12 We've got a link in the show notes for where she's.

10:14 And just or just get a hold of her and say you're taking this and contributing.

10:19 So, yeah.

10:20 Yeah, sounds good.

10:21 Yeah, nicely done.

10:23 And you just grab that and you can drop it into your project.

10:26 It's just like a markdown file or something like that.

10:28 Yeah.

10:28 So, Michael, do you have any dark secrets that you want to share?

10:31 I think we all have dark secrets and I don't really want to talk about it.

10:34 But it's time to get it out in the open.

10:36 And so the next thing I want to talk about is an article, a pretty deep article from MIT Technology

10:41 Review called The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI.

10:45 So we've touched on this a few times.

10:47 It's kind of a nice follow-up from last week.

10:50 There's a huge problem with AI.

10:51 And we've had statistical models and we can look at the model.

10:55 We can see things that it's predicting.

10:57 But as we move farther and farther into things like deep learning, the machine doesn't know

11:02 why it knows a thing.

11:03 We don't know why it knows a thing.

11:05 But we can teach it a thing and then it does that thing.

11:07 Right?

11:08 Even the creators of these deep learning models can't explain why it makes a decision.

11:13 You can't like set a break point and step through and go, oh, this is the if case.

11:16 Yes, of course, here.

11:17 There's none of that.

11:18 It's like I've taught it a bunch of stuff and now it somehow knows and then I ask it a question.

11:23 So they gave a really interesting example to kick off this article.

11:26 They said, last year, an experimental vehicle made by NVIDIA was just like any other automated

11:31 car was released somewhere in New Jersey, I think it was.

11:34 And they said, but it was unlike anything demonstrated by Google, Tesla, or GM.

11:39 And it shows the rising power of AI.

11:42 The car didn't follow instructions by being programmed or engineered.

11:46 They basically taught this car how to drive by having it watch humans drive.

11:52 and then they put it out on the road.

11:54 Oh, wow.

11:55 Yeah.

11:55 And so it was really weird.

11:59 Like the results seemed to do what human drivers did.

12:02 But if it did something different, how do you understand or debug it or even change it to make

12:07 those decisions differently?

12:09 Like if it crashes into a tree, it sits at a light.

12:12 Or there's always the hilarious joke that people seem to play on these cars is like draw like

12:17 what looks like painted white lines in a circle around it.

12:20 It can't get out.

12:22 You know, like, but if it does an unexpected thing, how do you debug it or change it?

12:27 That's really the secret is we, even the developers of AI and AI itself, they don't know how they

12:32 work.

12:33 Yeah.

12:33 And there's also things that when I think about this stuff, I don't, I'm fairly optimistic

12:38 about the self-driving cars and I'll be one of the first to grab one if I can afford one.

12:42 But the, there's always the question of like, okay, so if, if a car comes up to say, decide whether or not to crash you and your family into a tree or take out a whole glob of school children, what does it do?

12:58 Yeah.

12:59 And yeah, I don't, that's the sort of moral questions.

13:03 I don't know how to deal with how people are going to debug that.

13:05 So for sure.

13:06 And if you get the AI to do that, maybe like, how do you know it's always going to make the right choice?

13:10 You don't.

13:11 It's probably statistically better than humans, but still it's, it's an interesting question.

13:15 So they basically say like, you know, how do you understand what the system does?

13:19 Like, why does it make the decision that does it?

13:21 You can't really ask it right now.

13:22 It's difficult to design a system so that it could explain what it does.

13:26 Like people don't, can't explain always why they do what they do precisely.

13:30 And so it's interesting.

13:32 One of the consequences that might be coming really soon, this is in the EU is there's an argument being made

13:39 that you have to be able to get machines and AIs to tell you why it reached a conclusion as a fundamental legal right.

13:47 Oh, wow.

13:48 Okay.

13:49 So if I'm told I have cancer and I go crazy and I burn all my life savings, oh, sorry, glitch in the whopper core.

13:55 You're fine.

13:56 You know, you want to, you know, want to know why.

13:59 If I'm denied a loan, if I'm denied the ability to buy a house, if I'm denied a job, right?

14:05 These are like serious, serious questions.

14:08 So basically they kind of round out that it didn't go all the way.

14:12 There's a lot to cover in this article, but last thing for us is he said, we've never before built machines that operate in ways their creators don't understand.

14:20 How well can we expect to communicate and get along with intelligent machines that could be unpredictable and inscrutable?

14:27 Crazy, huh?

14:28 Yeah.

14:29 Yeah, definitely.

14:30 I'm optimistic with you as well, but it's just a very, it's interesting that philosophy and morality is starting to become part of programming.

14:36 Yep.

14:37 We definitely have machines now that I think of more that one person doesn't understand.

14:42 But yeah, I think the biggest consequence for us is that we're going to have programs.

14:46 We can't debug or understand why they do things.

14:48 That's going to be a bizarre program in the future.

14:50 Before we move on, did you say the Whopper Corps?

14:53 I did say the Whopper Corps.

14:55 Is there a computer based on a hamburger?

14:57 No, no.

14:58 That's from the war games.

15:00 Oh, okay.

15:01 Remember they had to hack into the Whopper Corps because that machine, they had to teach it to play tic-tac-toe against itself or something.

15:08 Nice reference.

15:09 Thank you.

15:10 Yeah, I always think it's great that in that movie you can get from Colorado Springs to Bainbridge Island in a helicopter.

15:19 Like on one take of gas.

15:22 Not possible.

15:23 Anyway.

15:24 Awesome.

15:25 All right.

15:26 So let's proceed safely back to the three A's of testing patterns and away from this philosophy stuff.

15:30 Yeah.

15:30 So actually, I loved seeing this.

15:33 So this is an article.

15:34 I didn't write his name down.

15:36 Sorry.

15:36 Called Arrange Act Assert Patterns for Python Developers.

15:40 And I am a, you know, I'm a big, and this is a, the Arrange Act Assert Pattern is a structure for how to set up test cases.

15:49 And this is, you know, a fairly gentle, easy introduction, basically just telling people to not have big, long, spaghetti test code.

15:58 Your test code should be something structured.

16:01 And this is a decent structure.

16:03 And the Arrange Part is get yourself ready to do whatever you're going to do is the setup part.

16:08 Act is whatever thing you're testing.

16:11 And the Asserts Part is where you check.

16:13 So the important thing is don't go back and do a whole bunch of, try to do as many test cases as you can that all of the Asserts are at the end.

16:21 And you don't do more actions and do more Asserts.

16:24 I wrote a list.

16:26 There's other names that people might know it by, like given, when, then.

16:29 That's often attributed to behavior-driven development, but it's essentially the same pattern.

16:34 And I did cover it in a couple places on pythontesting.net and also in testing code.

16:40 Yeah, the links are both in the show notes there, yeah, for the episode and the article.

16:44 But more, I'm pleased with more people, more people being like one so far, more other Python developers writing for targeting developers and teaching people how to, how they should set up their tests.

16:57 So that's...

16:58 Yeah, and it's such a simple pattern.

16:59 But I find when I follow up my code, my tests are more focused and they're not less rambly.

17:06 So I think it's good.

17:06 Yeah, and also you have less chance of something going, like a test failing, you pretty much know what's wrong instead of a test failing.

17:15 And it might be one of 15 different things.

17:17 Yep, for sure.

17:18 All right, so last thing I want to cover is to shine a bit of a bright light on the future of Python.

17:25 So everyone out there listening, you are in a good place, let me tell you.

17:29 In terms of being interested and working in Python right now.

17:33 So there's another really deep article by this company called SourceD, Sourced, not entirely sure.

17:40 But their mission, they're not super Python focused.

17:44 I think they're doing mostly Go stuff.

17:45 But their mission is to build the first AI that understands code.

17:49 Speaking of AI, pretty interesting.

17:52 So they wrote this really long blog post.

17:55 There's a decent amount of data science and math in there.

17:57 And it's called Analyzing GitHub, How Developers Change Programming Languages Over Time.

18:02 So we've talked before, Brian, how Python is the number one most active language on GitHub, right?

18:11 For active, non-trivial projects, things like that.

18:14 And I think JavaScript was number one because everybody has JavaScript in their web apps, right?

18:18 Yeah.

18:18 So this is a different question, but kind of similar.

18:22 Not what is just most popular, but how is it changing over time?

18:26 Where are those trends going to?

18:27 If people are changing languages, where do they change from?

18:30 And so they have these cool Gantt charts that they've studied 4.5 million GitHub users,

18:36 over 393 different languages, and 10 terabytes of code.

18:39 And they said, given one of those 4.5 million users, how do we visualize them?

18:43 How do we think about them?

18:44 And they've got a Gantt chart of like, as they transition from one language to another over time.

18:49 And this is based on an original article by Eric Bernhardsen.

18:55 He's at Google.

18:56 And the name of his article is pretty interesting as well.

18:59 The Eigen Vector of Why We Move from Language X to Language Y.

19:03 All right.

19:04 So this takes us-

19:06 I love me a good Eigen Vector.

19:07 I do love me a good Eigen Vector as well.

19:09 It tells you where you're going.

19:10 So this is a slightly different approach, more of a data science, less of a statistical approach,

19:16 I believe.

19:16 And they said, look, first of all, we're going to not include JavaScript because JavaScript

19:20 is like spread amongst all these projects, right?

19:24 Hey, my Pyramid project has JavaScript.

19:26 That Ruby on Rails project, it's got JavaScript.

19:28 Everything is JavaScript.

19:29 So it's super hard to make reasonable claims about JavaScript because it's such a complementary

19:34 language.

19:35 So they said, like, we can't reason about this, so put it to the side.

19:38 Take that for what it's worth.

19:39 And they said, we're going to look at the most popular languages on GitHub.

19:44 And they do a whole bunch of work.

19:46 And they come up with this stationary distribution of a Markov chain.

19:50 How about that?

19:51 And what they find out is the number one most stable language at GitHub is Python.

19:59 And interestingly, its stability level is higher by almost 50% than the amount of code as a

20:06 percentage of it on GitHub.

20:07 So it's really, really stable.

20:09 And then behind that...

20:11 So what do you mean by stable?

20:12 People, once they get to Python, are least likely to move away from Python.

20:16 Okay.

20:16 Yeah.

20:17 I believe that's right.

20:18 Interpretation.

20:19 Then there's Java, which is also very stable.

20:21 There's C, then C++, then PHP, then Ruby, then C#.

20:25 And then it goes on and on and on.

20:26 So they make some claims based on this.

20:29 They say, Python, at 16.1%, appears to be the most attractive language followed closely

20:34 by Java.

20:35 It's especially interesting since 11.3% of all code on GitHub is written in Python.

20:40 So it's more attractive than its level of code would imply.

20:43 They said, there are some languages that are repulsive.

20:47 That's my wording, not theirs.

20:49 But they said, although there are 10 times more lines of code on GitHub and PHP rather than Ruby,

20:54 they have the same level of stationary attractiveness.

20:57 So much less reason to be attracted to Ruby.

21:01 But if you're there, you're more likely to stick.

21:03 And so they said, what about sticking to a language?

21:05 Developers coding in one of the five most popular languages, Java, C, C++, PHP, and Ruby,

21:10 are most likely to switch to Python with a 22% chance on average.

21:15 How about that?

21:16 Yeah.

21:16 So people who like Python are most likely to stay there.

21:19 And people who are one of the five most popular languages are most likely to move there as well.

21:22 I think it also didn't, I don't know, I haven't read this article, but I think it also goes to

21:27 the fact how easy it is to think of something that you could solve that you could share with

21:32 somebody else on a project with Python.

21:35 For instance, I've programmed C++ all my career, but I've never contributed any C++ code to GitHub.

21:41 Yeah, that's for sure.

21:42 It's definitely a more open source friendly language as well.

21:45 A few more random stats.

21:46 They say visual basic developers are very likely to move to C# with a 92% chance of that.

21:53 And people using numerical and statistical environments such as Fortran, MATLAB, or R are most likely

21:58 to switch to Python using this measure of analysis, whereas Eric, the base blog, the original blog,

22:06 was suggesting they might move to C.

22:08 So pretty interesting little article there about stability and attractiveness of projects.

22:14 That correlates with other, I guess, anecdotal things that we've heard of more people migrating,

22:20 especially in data science, to Python.

22:23 Yeah, it seems totally believable to me, given all the other pieces of information and studies

22:27 we've seen and talked about.

22:28 Yeah.

22:29 Nice.

22:29 Nice.

22:30 So I think I would say, you know, if you're thinking about where do I bet my career, that's

22:34 another positive sign that Python's probably a good spot to hang on to for a while.

22:37 Long while.

22:38 All right.

22:39 Well, that's the news.

22:40 Anything else going on, Brian?

22:42 I wasn't there, but EuroPython got wrapped up last week.

22:46 But I did have some stickers, some rocket stickers, Hits a Ride.

22:50 Nice.

22:51 They blasted all the way over to, what was that, Spain?

22:54 Yeah, Italy, I think.

22:56 Oh, Italy.

22:56 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

22:57 And had a bunch of stickers handed out to promote the book.

23:00 So that's fun.

23:02 So I got one more week to finish it, and then it'll be done.

23:06 You must be looking forward to that.

23:08 Yeah.

23:09 So how about you?

23:10 What's going on?

23:10 Awesome.

23:11 Not too much.

23:12 I'm really enjoying summer.

23:13 I'm actually working on some apps, some very interesting apps from my training courses.

23:18 Not that I'm going to teach, but to like deliver stuff.

23:21 So more to come on that right now.

23:23 I'm just writing.

23:23 Okay.

23:24 See how it comes out in the end.

23:25 Yeah.

23:25 Very fun.

23:26 Hey, one of the things that you brushed by fairly, I know you talked about it a lot somewhere

23:31 else, maybe, but you were Python for entrepreneurs course.

23:35 It's freaking awesome.

23:37 Thank you, man.

23:38 Thank you very much.

23:39 I think more people should check it out.

23:40 And I don't think it's just for entrepreneurs.

23:42 I think it's a good top to bottom Python for web plus front end and back end.

23:48 It's a nice thing for people to look at.

23:51 Thank you so much.

23:52 Yeah.

23:52 And it's officially, officially done as of last week.

23:54 So it's finally ready for the world.

23:56 Thanks a bunch for the shout out.

23:58 Yeah.

23:58 And Matt McKay helped you with that, I believe.

24:00 Yep.

24:01 Matt McKay from Full Stack Python.

24:03 We are happy to be done.

24:04 And we're planning our next thing that we're going to do.

24:06 Yeah.

24:07 You guys did a good job on that.

24:08 So cool.

24:09 Thanks a bunch.

24:10 And yeah, it's super good to see your book coming out as well.

24:12 It's very fun, isn't it?

24:13 Yeah.

24:13 Awesome.

24:14 All right.

24:14 Catch up next week.

24:15 You bet.

24:15 Catch you next week.

24:16 Thanks for being here, Brian.

24:17 Thanks everyone for listening.

24:18 Thank you for listening to Python Bytes.

24:21 Follow the show on Twitter via at Python Bytes.

24:24 That's Python Bytes as in B-Y-T-E-S.

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24:37 On behalf of myself and Brian Okken, this is Michael Kennedy.

24:40 Thank you for listening and sharing this podcast with your friends and colleagues.