Transcript #394: Python is easy now?

00:00 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

00:04 This is 394 recorded July 30th, 2024.

00:10 I am Michael Kennedy.

00:11 And I'm Brian Okken.

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01:12 Brian, I learned Python.

01:13 It was a good weekend.

01:14 Is that the same?

01:15 Is that what you're telling me for your first item here?

01:18 But where are you going with this?

01:20 Michael, I think you've done it for a while.

01:22 No, I'm bungling.

01:24 Bundled the joke a little bit, but yes, that's all right.

01:27 I thought Python is easy.

01:28 I hear.

01:29 Yeah.

01:29 Python is easy now.

01:31 apparently no, I, it's, I love Python.

01:34 Anyway, what I wanted to talk about was, beyond hyper modern or postmodern.

01:39 I'm not sure what the tagline is really.

01:41 So this is an article by Chris, our dear art, Chris, sorry about, I've probably mangled your last name, but, I really liked the article, Chris.

01:50 So what is this?

01:51 so it's the, the title is beyond hyper hyper modern Python is easy now.

01:57 And this is a reference to hyper modern Python.

02:01 That was, he says it came out like, as a series that came out four years ago or something.

02:07 interesting.

02:08 but it's, what was hype?

02:11 Who is the hyper modern person again?

02:13 Can't remember.

02:14 Oh, oh, I should have looked this up anyway.

02:17 Claude, Claudia, Claudio, Claudio, Joe, I'm not going to try Claudia's book, hyper modern Python tooling is now as a book, which is cool.

02:27 good job, but that's not what we're talking about.

02:29 We're talking about, beyond hyper modern or, from the URL postmodern.

02:34 So what is this?

02:35 Basically it's talking about all the tooling and it's all in Rye now.

02:40 So this is what Chris's idea is, is you could do so much in Rye.

02:44 And actually I knew Rye did a lot.

02:46 and, but, but Rye is, is, is actually does more than I thought you could.

02:52 So, Rye is a tool that's like, kind of does a lot of stuff around Python.

02:57 So there's set up, it goes through set up, linting, typing, testing, documentation, CI CD, and then there's about a section on mono repo.

03:06 But I really liked just walking through, like if you wanted to try out Rye,

03:11 all of the different, like the workflow going through the entire workflow of,

03:14 building a Python project.

03:16 like the setup part is, setting up an initial directory, including setting up your pyproject.toml and setting up some, some, some different

03:26 directories, which is, which is a great, just, sets up the structure for you.

03:31 There's a lot of files here that like, I don't off to tell you the truth.

03:35 I don't use lock files a lot.

03:37 partly because I'm using, I'm often developing Python modules, or packages, which, I don't really lock stuff.

03:44 Locking is, is more regularly around applications.

03:48 so do you have lock files for some of your application stuff?

03:52 All of them.

03:53 All of them.

03:53 I use, I use the pip compile workflow.

03:56 Okay.

03:56 So I've got like one thing that specifies the top level requirements.

04:00 And then another one that is the lock file using a UV pip compile.

04:04 Okay.

04:05 one of the things that I didn't think about was like, requirements for the requirements dash dev lock.

04:12 So instead of requirements on text, these are the, the, the dependencies

04:17 are in your pyproject.toml, but there are a lot requirements lock files, but a dev

04:21 lock file that I might actually have even for a package, like, to keep, make sure all the developers are using the same thing.

04:28 So that's kind of interesting.

04:30 It makes a lot of sense.

04:31 I was just had, when I publish it, this set this week's episode, I can't remember very, very, very recently, David Lord from Flask on

04:40 talk Python and one of the things they're working on is creating a more repeatable

04:46 environment for contributors and developers to Flask.

04:49 So like you Flask, you don't want to just pin the versions of everything.

04:51 Cause that wrecks everybody else's options to work with different versions.

04:55 But you do want to make sure that people do PRs have the same setup as people who are reviewing the PRs.

05:01 Right.

05:01 So they talked, he talked a lot about having a hidden requirements of, for

05:06 development for developers of the project, but not the project itself.

05:09 Yeah, that's a cool idea.

05:10 so, so let's set up there's, you can do linting with it.

05:15 the testing section talks about pytest.

05:17 Yay.

05:18 but the, one of the things that I thought was kind of neat was this, and I think I knew this, but anyway, this idea of scripts.

05:25 So within your pyproject.toml, you can set up Rai scripts.

05:29 So they're basically extra commands that do things like, so you can say like,

05:34 Rai run test in, and so the run command runs your scripts.

05:39 So you can say run in a test is a thing that you've said that just like defaults

05:45 to Rai test, but things like Rai, Rai run check might be running PyRite or for, for

05:51 linting or for type checking or linting is a Rai lint with a fix or something.

05:58 so all these different, if you, if you've, especially if you're, you've got

06:02 other people on the team, having some way to do all of this is good.

06:06 And then a kind of a neat thing that I, that's probably as nice as being able to

06:10 chain, scripts.

06:12 So if you've got like, running your form, auto formatting and linting and,

06:17 the type checking and also running your tests, but then if you want to do all of

06:21 them, there's a way to just chain them up within the pyproject.toml, which is

06:26 kind of cool.

06:26 So yeah, that's very cool.

06:27 It's kind of takes the place of where I would use either where I used to use make

06:31 files.

06:32 Now I use, talks, commands for, but, so a lot of this around, if you don't need it, I'm guessing this doesn't create a new virtual environment,

06:42 but I haven't played with it yet.

06:43 but that's where talks would, do that.

06:46 so there, there's a discussion around documentation.

06:50 It isn't really a Rai thing, but just talking about documenting things well, but

06:54 I, I really kind of like this article about like, if you want to try out mostly

06:58 because I do want to try out Rai and this kind of walks through all the different

07:02 things it does within your workflow and where you might want to pull it in.

07:05 And I do, I do appreciate that Rai has some configuration.

07:09 So apparently the default, packaging tool is hatch, but, the, but this person, Chris wanted to use PDMs.

07:19 You can set that, but I'd probably leave it as hatch cause I like catch, but,

07:22 but might do something different.

07:24 But you can even, set a dependency operator.

07:28 So whether you want it to be like approximately equal to or greater than equal or whatever, kind of neat.

07:34 The, the bonus is really kind of fun.

07:37 I don't, I actually just ran into a project where I have to, to help support,

07:43 which is a, is a, a large repository with multiple Python projects in it.

07:48 And so I'm looking forward to reading through, how, how possibly this, this documentation around dealing with monorepos in Python, this is

07:58 on my to do route to read next, list.

08:01 So that's cool.

08:02 That's next level stuff right there.

08:03 Yeah.

08:05 Well, very, very cool.

08:06 I Brian am happy to report.

08:09 I think that the GIL has been vanquished, but we are now in the epoch of free-threaded Python.

08:17 So how might you, might you test this out and see if it's actually worth it and so on.

08:22 Okay.

08:22 So Simon Wilson, one of his today I learned is trying out free threaded Python on macOS.

08:28 Could be others as well, but you can just go to, this is interesting.

08:32 I didn't realize that you would be able to get free threaded Python this way from the pep.

08:36 It's like, you've got to get a special build of it.

08:38 And it's just like its own thing.

08:40 Right.

08:41 Yeah.

08:41 But if you get the macOS installer, I, I don't know about the others, but

08:44 presumably the windows one has something similar or will, I don't know.

08:48 Go to install this and you can set up the options, custom install, and you can just

08:53 check off a checkbox to install a separate binary for three free threaded

08:57 Python 313 instead of gilled Python.

09:01 Wow.

09:01 That's just from the python.org download.

09:04 Yeah, exactly.

09:05 Wow.

09:05 Exactly.

09:06 Yeah.

09:06 Just to get that downloads beta three of it.

09:08 And there it is.

09:09 So you just hit a customize your install and boom.

09:12 So that alone is kind of interesting.

09:14 Yeah.

09:14 And then once you do that, you get not just a Python three dot 13, but a Python

09:20 313 T it's interesting, but not FT.

09:26 I mean, the other one should have a T on it.

09:28 Come on.

09:28 If it's going to be threaded, I don't know.

09:29 Anyway, T whatever you get one that is like, that's the one you can run in the

09:34 command line for free threaded Python.

09:35 And Simon points out, like, didn't really put this in the path because it's beta.

09:39 I don't want to mess stuff up, but nonetheless, there it is.

09:42 So let's test it out.

09:44 It comes up with a simple little program that just does some CPU bound thing.

09:48 This is the important thing.

09:49 We've for a long time since Python three, four had really good options to

09:54 parallelize IO bound or waiting types of things.

09:58 I'm talking to a network.

09:59 I'm talking to a database.

10:00 I'm talking to whatever with asyncio, right?

10:03 Yeah.

10:03 The CPU bound stuff that Gil would stop and go, yeah, no, I don't care how many

10:08 cores you got, you got one, right?

10:09 Yeah.

10:10 And so this is just summing up a bunch of numbers, the squares of the numbers,

10:13 just like doing some computational busy work.

10:16 Right.

10:16 So it says, okay, well, let's set up a little app that'll take some parameters

10:20 so we can feed it different information and see what we'll get and then run it

10:23 on a thread pool executor with as many threads that is are specified.

10:28 So start out just to skip ahead.

10:31 So look, I ran it once I get one course as 99% CPU usage on MacOS that it reports

10:38 this as a hundred percent basis as being one core fully busy.

10:42 So you've got eight cores.

10:43 This could go up to 800%.

10:44 It's kind of weird.

10:45 Anyway, 99% CPU.

10:47 If you run the regular one, but if you run the free threaded one, he was getting

10:51 some number that was a little low.

10:52 There's a bug.

10:53 It's not super relevant about him fixing the bug or not.

10:56 I don't really think that matters, but what the takeaway is, if you run it with

11:02 four threads, that whole workload ran in 1.3 seconds, you're at with 12 threads.

11:08 It went down to one second.

11:10 I don't know how many cores he has.

11:11 I don't believe it said, but with the GIL that's four seconds versus one

11:15 second or 1.3 seconds for the basically four times as fast, presumably this is

11:20 a four core system, I'm not sure.

11:22 Anyway, pretty cool.

11:23 Right?

11:23 That is pretty, pretty cool.

11:25 So yes, that's faster.

11:27 Four times faster is, you know, 400%.

11:29 That's no joke.

11:30 That'll make a difference for some people, but I think more relevant.

11:33 It's just like, Hey, look, apparently the installers have it.

11:35 Right.

11:36 That's kind of cool.

11:37 Yeah.

11:37 Okay.

11:38 I was chuckling because, so testing it out.

11:41 It says, I asked Claude three and a half sonnet to write me a quick test

11:44 script, but the script had come up with is something I know that he can write on his

11:49 own.

11:49 Yeah, exactly.

11:52 Exactly.

11:53 That's fine.

11:55 Yeah.

11:55 The, the, it didn't come up with something all that interesting and it introduced a

11:58 bug.

11:58 He should have just written it himself.

12:00 Oh, well, but this is neat.

12:03 I actually, I saw the announcement that there were some builds of, of the free

12:08 thread or one, but I didn't know you could just do it, like click it from the

12:11 installer.

12:11 That's cool.

12:12 Yeah.

12:12 That's, that's the big news I took away as well.

12:15 Very cool.

12:15 Neat.

12:16 Very neat.

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14:06 What's next, Brian?

14:07 I want to iterate into our, to the next topic.

14:10 I want to talk about it or tools.

14:12 So I really, this is, this comes from Rodrigo, Rodrigo from math, maths, pp.com.

14:20 And he writes a lot of great articles, but, and I know we've covered it or tools

14:26 before, and people have heard of it or tools and it's built into Python, but

14:30 there's so many goodies in there that I like to have people tell me what

14:34 their favorites are and reshaping.

14:35 So this is there's this is an article that groups all of the it's they, I don't

14:43 think, I think there's more than 20 in there, but anyway, 20 tools that every

14:47 Python developer should be aware of from inner tools and it's broken into five

14:51 categories, there's reshaping iterators, filtering, filtering, iterators,

14:56 combinatorial, infinite, and iterators that compliment other tools.

15:01 And there's, I just did a quick list of this and I, I really think there's a few,

15:07 few of these in here that I need to use more.

15:10 So I'm glad, glad I ran across this article.

15:12 One of them.

15:13 So right off the bat, this is the three most useful iterators or product.

15:18 And what product does is it simplifies, like, let's say you've got a nested loop

15:22 of like a width and height, for instance, for X in range of width and for Y in

15:28 range of height, you do something with X and Y.

15:30 Well, you can use inner tools product and, and have it just be one does a product of

15:36 two ranges or product of two iterators.

15:38 And it gives you the two like the, all the, all of the combinations in order.

15:44 So that's a really cool thing that I always forget about that.

15:48 I probably should write that more, especially if you've got more than two,

15:52 when you get like three, it gets ridiculous.

15:54 And so using it or tools to simplify that, it's a really great idea.

15:58 And because, you know, with Python, every time you, you, indeed into a four loop,

16:03 you're going to indent your code.

16:05 It helps you keep the, the, the horizontal width of your code a little bit more

16:10 reasonable.

16:11 Okay.

16:11 >> Flats that are nested, all that kind of stuff.

16:13 >> Yeah.

16:13 Chain, I always remember about.

16:15 So chain is a, is a, is a way to combine two lists and iterate through all of them

16:20 instead of adding the lists, adding is kind of, it creates a new one.

16:24 You might not need that.

16:25 Whereas chain, we'll iterate through both of them.

16:28 And I, after remind people, if you're not aware, all these really cool things within

16:33 the inner tools, there are a way to manipulate iterators such that you're not

16:37 copying things.

16:38 You're not making a new list of something.

16:40 You're just iterating through existing iterators without doing the copy.

16:43 I think that I'm pretty sure that's true.

16:45 Yeah.

16:46 The, the one that I, the, the third one on is you, everybody should know about that.

16:51 I thought was great was pairwise.

16:53 And I actually apparently never knew about this.

16:56 And this is a way to like, let's say you've got a, the example is a bunch of names and

17:02 you want to be able to make sure that everybody says hi to the person on their

17:06 right.

17:06 You can go through and it, well, this may be a silly example, but if you want to go

17:10 through an entire sequence and make sure each pair in a, like you're just walking it

17:17 down, like the first, like number one and number two, and then two and three, and

17:20 then three and four, this is an easy way to do that.

17:22 And actually there's an old way of using zip with the, you can, you can combine two

17:30 lists and do slices, but that's a little confusing.

17:33 Whereas pairwise just gives it to you right away.

17:36 It returns to two pointers to objects.

17:39 So that's really cool.

17:40 A couple more things I wanted to bring up that, that were great in here was zip

17:45 longest, which I do remember because I use it frequently, but if you're zipping two

17:51 things together, which means you're going to go through and go through to two

17:55 sequences using zip by default, zip picks the shortest and whereas, and it just chops

18:02 it off.

18:02 I think, actually, I don't remember what it does at the end, but zip longest will

18:07 have a fill value.

18:08 So you give it a fill value and it goes through everything and you'll have

18:12 something empty.

18:13 So you make sure you go through everything.

18:14 And then the last thing is T, which is, which is kind of neat.

18:19 It allows you to do, normally iterators are exhausted once you go through it.

18:24 So you have to like regenerate an iterator, but T allows you to do, to iterate

18:29 through something a couple of times.

18:30 It allows you to, to iterate without exhausting the iterator, which interesting.

18:36 So, so nice.

18:38 And then at the end, a discussion of, which is, which I think is cool that he did

18:43 this.

18:43 So a discussion that there is a, is he wrote a book on iter tools.

18:49 So there's a little book of iter tools.

18:51 He's not paying for this ad.

18:52 I just think it's neat that somebody wrote a book about iter tools.

18:55 That's nice.

18:55 Neat.

18:56 Yeah.

18:57 Yeah.

18:57 That's pretty neat.

18:58 So.

18:59 There's a lot of, a lot of powerful stuff there.

19:01 Yeah.

19:02 It's all a lot of simple, hard problems in simple ways.

19:05 I like, I really appreciate that he picked out those first three though, of like, even

19:10 if you're not really wanting to go through all of this, take a look at these three, you

19:14 might, you probably need them and you just don't realize it.

19:17 So, yeah.

19:18 So what do you, what do you got for us next, Michael?

19:22 You would love to know if your website was down and not up or your Docker container or

19:27 your other service, and you would like to be notified in interesting ways.

19:31 And there are services you can pay for this or free services that have weird

19:36 limitations or I don't know, just funky stuff.

19:38 Right.

19:38 Some of those, in order to answer really good questions, you'd have to give them

19:42 pretty serious internal access to your code or to your infrastructure potentially.

19:47 So I present to you the Uptime Kuma, which just trying hard to resist uptime karma, but

19:53 no, Uptime Kuma, a fancy self-hosted monitoring tool.

19:57 Okay.

19:57 So this thing is pretty cool.

19:59 It comes with a Docker variant, so you can just Docker compose it into life.

20:05 And I'm thinking about setting this up for Python bytes and talk Python and other

20:09 things, because I've already got that Docker cluster and all the infrastructure to run

20:13 it.

20:13 So adopting it should be really easy.

20:14 It just takes one container to run.

20:17 And I believe it stores its data into a SQLite database in there.

20:22 So file copies, kind of a backup.

20:24 It's kind of the backup option, right?

20:25 So anyway, check this out.

20:27 Doesn't this look neat, Brian?

20:28 You tell it different things you want to do.

20:30 Like I want to check that the port is open.

20:32 I want to check that this example is, you know, some example.com website is up.

20:37 You can see that MySQL is running.

20:38 You can ping the server to see that the server is up.

20:41 All sorts of things you can put as tests in here, and you can even have an anti-test.

20:45 Like for example, if you're ever able to directly connect to the database, that

20:50 should be flagged as an error, like a down moment, not an up moment, because

20:55 something's gone wrong with the infrastructure and you need to go fix it.

20:58 But in a reverse sort of way.

20:59 So what does it say?

21:00 First of all, 54,000, 53,000 GitHub stars.

21:04 So really, really quite popular.

21:07 It has a little test, a little test server you can set up, point at your

21:11 website for 10 minutes and play with it.

21:13 That's a really nice feature.

21:14 What it says, uptime monitoring for HTTPS, TCP, HTTP keywords, JSON query, ping, a DNS record.

21:22 You can make sure your DNS records don't go insane and like your MX, DKIM or I don't know, whatever, game servers, and even check that your

21:30 certain Docker containers are still running.

21:32 So it's got a nice UI and has notifications for Telegram, Discord, Slack, pushover, email, and 90 other notifications.

21:40 Can have as fine grained as every 20 seconds checking.

21:43 It comes with status pages.

21:45 So if we had a Python bytes monitor set up with this, I could set up status.pythonbytes.fm

21:54 that people could go and see if the RSS feed is live.

21:57 Is the Docker container running?

21:58 Is X, Y, and Z, right?

22:00 So it has that for you.

22:01 And it'll also, one thing I really like, cause I use let's encrypt, but the auto

22:06 renewal is a little bit janky, long story.

22:08 I don't want to go into it, but it's a little bit janky.

22:10 And, so it works, but it requires a little fiddling.

22:14 So having it, it'll actually check SSL certificates to see if it'll expire.

22:18 So it'll say like your certificate is good for 29 more days.

22:21 Oh, maybe you want to get on that before it goes like, you know, something terrible.

22:25 So all of that, isn't that sweet?

22:28 It is cool.

22:29 Yeah.

22:29 There's a bunch of sponsors and it's got this nice UI.

22:32 You can bump over to the status page.

22:35 It'll prepare you a little demo app and it runs for a certain amount of time.

22:40 So how, how long are certificates good for?

22:42 if you do a let's encrypt, it's a year, I believe.

22:46 Okay.

22:46 So anyway, you can go over here and create this and actually go and add a little

22:50 monitor and pick all the different kinds and look at all these things.

22:54 You can monitor MongoDB, SQL server, Postgres directly.

22:59 Yeah.

22:59 It's really neat.

23:00 So I'm thinking of setting this up and if you want to play with it, just

23:03 click on that little thing you can see here, Brian, I clicked on it now.

23:06 It says I have nine minutes to 21 seconds before my app gets blown away, but I can

23:10 test it out, which is pretty cool.

23:11 Anyway, it, will give us, Potentially a really nice way to sort of monitor and get notifications about it.

23:20 So I have that for other services, but don't like it.

23:23 I could set it up once a day on the free one and make sure that my website at

23:27 least is live for 10 minutes a day.

23:29 Yeah.

23:29 Yeah.

23:32 If you don't mind reconfiguring it every time.

23:35 Yeah.

23:35 Okay.

23:36 Yeah, sure.

23:36 All right.

23:37 Pretty cool.

23:37 How about some extras?

23:38 the only extra I got was last week I talked about, making a new pytest course, I've been working on that and I'm on version three because I'm, a

23:51 perfectionist and want to make sure that it's smooth and quick.

23:54 So, I do hope to get that out sometime soon.

23:58 I was going to say maybe next week, but you know, I don't want to put too much pressure on myself.

24:02 Yeah.

24:02 When I get, that's, that's very exciting.

24:05 I know people are looking forward to it.

24:06 I also had to basically put DaVinci resolve down to come record the podcast.

24:11 So I was in the middle of editing some videos I got coming on for a new course

24:14 as well, so very exciting stuff.

24:16 All right.

24:17 There's, there's a never ending stream of things to talk about, right?

24:20 Yeah.

24:21 All right.

24:21 I've got a couple.

24:22 Kenneth writes, talks, pointed out that, you know, requests and more fame talks about this, move that Switzerland pulled Switzerland,

24:33 Switzerland now requires all government software to be open source.

24:37 That's cool.

24:37 Cool.

24:38 Yeah.

24:38 So what does that mean?

24:40 They, you gotta read it carefully.

24:41 It doesn't mean the government has to only use open source as in Linux and

24:46 Firefox, but the thing, the software that the government makes has to be open source of what this is.

24:51 So we bump over to Omnivore.

24:53 You can see my notes.

24:54 So Switzerland has taken a major step forward with its federal law on the

24:58 use of electronic means for the fulfillment of government tasks.

25:01 MBAG is the acronym.

25:04 It's groundbreaking legislation mandates releasing open source software of the federal government.

25:09 The law requires all public bodies to disclose the source code of software

25:13 developed by or for them, unless 30 part third-party rights or security concerns.

25:19 So that's pretty neat.

25:20 There's actually, there was some pushback.

25:22 For example, one of the main areas this was around is the justice system.

25:26 This, was trying to get all the software that runs basically runs the justice system, the court system for Switzerland open source, but guess what?

25:38 The proprietary legal software company, Weblaw wasn't happy.

25:42 Right?

25:43 Yeah.

25:43 No, they weren't.

25:44 But, after a decade of fighting, it came out and there's one other point to

25:48 make in addition to mandating open source software, it also requires the release

25:53 of non-personal non-security sensitive data as open data.

25:58 So it's like open software and open, open data as well.

26:03 So pretty cool.

26:04 Interesting.

26:04 We have stuff.

26:05 Yeah, it is.

26:06 We do have some stuff like that, like over at Talk Python.

26:08 What was it?

26:10 elections.

26:11 I think if I look for that, yeah.

26:12 Python at the U S federal elections, commission and talk to Laura, Beaufort, and I believe they are open sourcing their stuff as well.

26:21 A lot of things going on there.

26:22 Like, yeah.

26:23 Open source at the FEC, for example.

26:25 So we have some stuff in like spotty examples of that, but not as a overall

26:30 statement, so it's pretty interesting.

26:31 Right?

26:31 Yeah.

26:32 I'm curious to look at some of this stuff.

26:33 Like, yeah.

26:35 How clean's your code?

26:36 Like, yeah.

26:37 How many, AWS keys will be in there?

26:41 We'll find out.

26:42 Thanks indirectly, Kenneth, for that.

26:45 one more.

26:46 Remember last week I talked about the PySimple GUI and it's switching to a

26:51 commercial license, which again, I'm not super against, but it's sort of the,

26:55 the rug pull aspect of it, like, Hey, it's open source for a long time.

26:58 And I'm going to take everybody's contributions and then, you know, change

27:01 the license, that, that sort of thing.

27:03 got some people's nerves up.

27:05 Well, F Falcon 31415 on Mastodon pointed out, Hey, check out free simple

27:12 GUI, which I linked to in the show notes, which is an actively maintained fork of

27:16 the last release of PySimple GUI with an open source license.

27:20 So if you were like, Oh, I was going to use that.

27:23 And you still can.

27:24 Yeah, actually it's got a really good, the read me on that has some really good to like, has some good tutorial examples of, of how to write it.

27:33 Simple GUI on it.

27:33 So, not only is it the open source free version, but it's, it's also some pretty good documentation on there.

27:40 Cool.

27:41 All right.

27:42 How about some jokes?

27:43 Yeah.

27:44 Joke, joke, singular joke, a singular joke.

27:46 So this one is kind of a meme with Will Smith and it doesn't really have that much to do with Will Smith.

27:52 I think it's just the attitude.

27:53 I like Will Smith anyway, says just because I know Java doesn't mean I know JavaScript.

27:58 I mean, I do, but not because I know Java.

28:02 That's good.

28:03 Right?

28:03 Yeah.

28:04 Yeah.

28:04 I was just talking, talking to, whenever you talk to kids trying to learn

28:09 like software, it is, it's still confusing to people.

28:12 I mean, like it's not confusing to us cause we've been in around it.

28:15 We knew that the history, but it seems weird now to tell people, yeah, the

28:19 JavaScript that everybody uses, it was named that because Java was popular at the time.

28:25 So anyway, are you muted?

28:29 I was sorry.

28:30 fun episode as always, Brian.

28:32 Yeah.

28:33 Fun.

28:33 And yeah.

28:34 Thanks man.

28:34 Nice to be in here.