Transcript #120: AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source and more

00:00 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

00:05 This is episode 120, recorded February 28th, 2019.

00:10 I'm Michael Kennedy.

00:11 And I'm Brian Okken.

00:12 And this episode is sponsored by DigitalOcean.

00:14 Check them out at pythonbytes.fm/digitalocean.

00:17 Lots of good stuff with that URL, but more about that later.

00:20 Brian, welcome back to the show, man.

00:22 Oh, thanks. Nice episode last week.

00:24 Thanks, yeah. We went to Seattle and we all had fun and sadly you were knocked out, but understandably.

00:29 Man, I sent it to everybody I knew, my daughter and a whole bunch of people and said,

00:32 at least listen to the first bit of it because this is why I enjoy working with Michael.

00:37 It was so nice of you to do a shout out to me. That was nice.

00:41 Thanks. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah, you're welcome.

00:43 It's the least I could do. Wish you were there, but that's okay.

00:46 Speaking of people who were almost there, at least was at the conference who I got to spend a lot of time with,

00:50 but wasn't actually at that live recording, Nina Zinkarenko.

00:54 How about that? That's our first, the source of our first item, right? She is?

00:57 Yes. How could I resist? She put together this wonderful resource for people.

01:02 So what I'm talking about is the ultimate guide to memorable tech talks.

01:07 She said it was going to be a blog post and it turned into what she calls a book, but it's a seven articles on Medium and it's a seven part series that she covers things like choosing a topic, writing a talk proposal, tools that she uses, planning, writing it, writing your talk out, practicing it and delivering the talk.

01:27 And it's a phenomenal resource.

01:34 of it. But one of the things, I mean, it speaks right to me because I got into podcasting partly

01:39 to get better about this public speaking thing, and it's difficult. And especially for, I think,

01:45 tool nerds and introverts and stuff like that, jumping into the tools and in the little details,

01:52 you can lose sight of stuff. So one of the things she noticed, she quote from the article is,

01:56 I noticed I'd procrastinate on making the slides look good instead of focusing my time on making

02:02 quality content. It's easy to get sucked into that, yeah. Yeah, totally. When I should have been,

02:08 like, I've given two talks and many, many talks informally at work and stuff, but two conferences.

02:14 And I spent so much time just tweaking the different slides instead of practicing it and making sure I

02:21 understand it well enough to even throw the slides away and just do the talk. And so I think focusing

02:27 on planning and leaving all that, the time enough to get all that. This is actually the series that I

02:33 wish I had when I started getting into trying to do talks because either you have out there, there's

02:39 either stuff that doesn't have enough information, it's just a quick gloss over, or it focuses on one

02:45 aspect. Or on the other end, you've got courses and books. This is just a series of blog posts that you can,

02:51 you know, staple together with one staple. So yeah, it's good. Not the big, heavy, super duper,

02:56 like binder staple, but like a regular one, right? Like the red one from Office Space. Yeah,

03:01 yeah. Just one of those. Yeah. Now this is a great series and nice work, Nina. Good pick,

03:06 Brian. I think it'll help a lot of people. I like that it's writing, you know, she covers writing the

03:11 talk proposal because it's great to get into public speaking, but you have to get accepted to get into

03:16 public speaking a lot of times. Although, although at the bigger conferences, say PyCon,

03:21 you can always do an open space and that's kind of like a dip your toe in the water because you

03:24 don't have to lead the whole conversation, but you kind of are sort of leading it in spirit.

03:29 Yeah. And then you can go through all of these steps for just to get ready. And you only have

03:34 to be up there for, I don't know how long the lightning talks are, but they're not long.

03:37 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Lightning talks are five minutes. Open spaces, I think are 25,

03:41 but you don't do the talking the whole time. We're definitely going to, you know,

03:45 you spoke about the live recording. We're definitely going to do more live recordings

03:47 at the main PyCon as some open spaces, if nothing else.

03:50 Yeah, definitely. I wanted to interview a bunch of people for stuff.

03:53 So bringing the mics. Okay, super. So the next one is something I've been digging into lately.

03:58 Have you done anything with Kubernetes?

03:59 No.

04:00 Let me take a step back. Have you done anything with Docker?

04:02 No.

04:03 So these two things are sort of stacked on top of each other and they often get complicated. So

04:07 Docker is a little bit of a complicated thing if you haven't done a lot of like deployment and

04:12 DevOps type stuff because it's all about configuring Linux isolated machines, if you will. And then

04:18 in order to actually use them properly, really, with scale out and failover and clusters and

04:23 connections between them and all that, like a Docker container for your web app, one for the database,

04:28 you really need some kind of orchestration, which is Kubernetes.

04:31 So there's a ton to learn about all this stuff. Luckily, Michael Herman from testdriven.io,

04:37 formerly of real Python, I did a really nice write up here. So he has a course on testdriven.io.

04:44 And this is like an extracted long example tutorial to get started with Flask on Kubernetes.

04:52 Wow. That actually sounds neat.

04:54 Yeah, it's actually pretty approachable. I mean, I said it's a complicated topic.

04:57 He really lays out the core ideas. And you know, if you ask Pocket, it says reading time

05:02 is 16 minutes. So it's pretty hefty, but it's not book size. It's not super, super long.

05:07 Of course, the little steps that it says, like take more than, you know, just one line or whatever,

05:11 right? You got to like, let it configure a cluster or something. So there's a little wait periods,

05:14 but really nice. It talks about how to basically get a Vue.js front end Flask back end app that talks

05:21 to a database, Postgres in particular, up and running on a Kubernetes cluster. So kind of

05:26 microservice style, which is pretty cool. And I'll just run off some of the goals. You guys

05:30 kind of know like what you'll get out of it. So explain what a container and container orchestration

05:34 is. Pros and cons of you using Kubernetes over say things like Docker swarm, all the primitive

05:40 concepts of Kubernetes, node pod service deployment, et cetera, spinning up a Python app, which is

05:45 nice locally with Docker compose. There's a nice little utility called minikube, which lets

05:51 you basically in just a couple of command lines create a Kubernetes cluster pre-configured on

05:58 your machine, which is a super pain. So that's really nice that you can just install that thing

06:03 and have it go and stuff like that. It's really quite nice.

06:06 Oh, I'm definitely going to check this out. Plus, like in 16 minutes, I can now put like 75

06:11 new keywords on my resume.

06:13 Oh yeah. This is dense in buzzword bingo hits.

06:16 Yeah.

06:17 Nice. You and I both picked something that's a little bit on the controversial side of the

06:23 world and open source and the community. You go first.

06:26 Okay. So this is just, I think it's still playing out, but in the end of January, maybe they announced

06:33 it earlier, but on the Travis CI blog, they announced that Travis CI is to join a Dara idea. I don't know.

06:41 Another company, basically they got bought by a company and frankly, I don't really care who owns

06:47 what, but then in February, I started seeing the hashtag Travis alums on Twitter and they looks like,

06:57 I mean, from the outside looking in, it looks like they're laying off a bunch of engineers.

07:00 I don't really know what's going on because they're not really talking about it. There hasn't been

07:04 anything else on the GitHub or the Travis CI blog to say what's going on. So I've used Travis for

07:11 running tests on Python projects. So I wanted to, I thought, you know, I've wanted to do this anyway.

07:16 So now's a good time to start looking at if I've got source code on GitHub, I want to use the,

07:21 and I want to use testing somewhere and it isn't Travis, where would I do it? And so trying right

07:28 now I'm trying to use GitLab and Azure pipelines with the help of some other people to try to get

07:34 those running on a couple of projects, but there's a lot more. I mean, GitHub lists 17 different options

07:40 for continuous integration that you can hook up. So yeah, that's a big deal, right? Like Travis has been

07:45 kind of the go-to plug it into your open source public GitHub repo and just let it turn away and,

07:51 you know, do all the checks on PRs and things like that, right?

07:54 They've claimed that our experience is not going to be different. However, with less engineers, it's,

08:01 I don't know, it seems like it might stagnate and stuff.

08:04 Yeah. Something that you also talked about here is Azure pipelines, Azure build pipelines. And that

08:10 definitely seems like it's getting a lot of traction. I've heard of some major open source

08:13 projects moving over to that either partially or entirely.

08:18 I'm dropping a few links in here. One of the links is a couple of things from Anthony Shaw. Of course,

08:23 it wouldn't be a show without Anthony. One of them is an article that he writes about Azure pipelines

08:29 with Python, by example. And also he's got a, a pytest plugin to help with testing on it, on Azure.

08:37 And then one of the people that's been helping me out is, I'm going to get his name wrong,

08:42 but Anthony's saw tile. So too, sorry, Anthony, but he's got a whole bunch of different Azure

08:48 templates on his GitHub repo that look neat.

08:51 Yeah. Cool. And as far as I understand it, Azure pipelines are free for public repos and things like

08:57 that. So it's, it's, it's interesting.

08:59 All the things I'm going to try are things that have a reasonable free levels for open source

09:05 projects.

09:06 That's kind of an interesting trend that's been going on. There's a lot of things that are

09:09 free for public open source repos, but paid for private stuff. And that's a,

09:14 seemed like a pretty good balance to me.

09:16 Having the GitHub go to allow private repos is interesting. And I'm not, you know, I'm not sure

09:22 what drove the, Travis change, but yeah, anyway.

09:25 Yeah. I'm pretty sure GitHub was pressured by Bitbucket, but I don't know anything about the roots of the Travis one. I do have more, a good news

09:33 around digital ocean for you and all the listeners. So they've traditionally had these like high

09:39 compute instances called droplets, they're virtual machines, and they've had memory heavy ones,

09:45 but the memory heavy ones didn't have dedicated CPUs. Like you did it shared with the Veeam host,

09:52 right? So you couldn't be guaranteed of like consistent workloads on that thing. So now they're announcing a

09:58 general purpose droplet that is a blend of dedicated CPUs and a wide range of memory configurations.

10:05 So basically you can get, quite a bit of Ram. I think the lowest one is eight gigs and it goes up

10:11 to either 64, 128 gigs of Ram and a whole bunch of dedicated CPUs. So it's pretty cool. And they

10:17 talk about, you know, some good examples of using it would be like web applications, hosting like an

10:22 e-commerce site where latency matters or, a medium size relational Postgres or, or no SQL like

10:28 MongoDB database. Cause you want your database to be fast, right? Like that's the heart of your app,

10:33 even if you scale the web front end and other sorts of analytics and so on. So you can check that out.

10:38 It's under limited availability, but, you can go and like click a button and say, I want to try

10:42 this. So check them out at pythonbytes.fm/digital ocean. It really supports the show. It

10:48 keeps us going each week.

10:49 Yes. Very cool.

10:50 Yeah. Thanks. So speaking of infrastructure, it's cool to be able to set up your code and your websites

10:56 and all of your infrastructure to run on Linux. And you might even do that on Docker and you might even

11:02 put those Docker containers on Kubernetes. But a lot of us are not using Linux as our dev machine,

11:08 right? A lot of us are using Macs, at least the ones you'll see walking around the conferences.

11:12 So this next item is called a Python server setup for macOS. That's a cool little Apple emoji.

11:18 Nice.

11:18 Yeah. So if you want to run like your Nginx and your micro whiskey or your G unicorn or like

11:23 your production software stack, but you want to run it locally on macOS, here's a little guide on how

11:29 to do that. So it basically takes you through setting up Nginx, having Nginx serve your static assets

11:34 through using G unicorn and flask, but you could pretty easily swap that out for,

11:38 you know, micro whiskey and whatever, whatever else you want to use. And then having Nginx be the

11:45 front end proxy for like a scaled out G unicorn back end. So it's pretty cool. Now I went through

11:49 this recently and not all the commands are seem to be working, at least on my system. I don't know why,

11:55 what they're going through. Maybe I missed a step, but even if the commands don't all exactly work,

12:00 I think it's still is a pretty good guide and it's on GitHub. So if you find mistakes,

12:05 open an issue. It's not super popular, but I think a lot of people will find it helpful if they,

12:10 they're trying to develop in something closer to their actual configuration.

12:15 Okay. Is this for more for like a, for a development environment sort of thing?

12:19 Yeah, exactly. Cause normally what you do is you get something like waitress or you get some other

12:24 built in like wimpy non-production full Python based web server. And then all the requests go

12:32 through your like flask or pyramid or whatever. But in production, it doesn't work that way. You

12:36 have Nginx doing SSL and doing static assets, and then it only passes the Python requests over.

12:41 And there's just like, there's quite a bit of difference. So if you want to have sort of a QA

12:46 local thing on your Mac, here you go.

12:48 Oh, that's nice. Okay.

12:49 Yeah. Pretty cool.

12:50 Check this out.

12:50 Uh-huh. What do you got for the next one?

12:51 When I started using a command line interface stuff, I used a click. So I did a quick search

12:58 for different ways to build a command line interface. Meaning like if I, not an interactive thing,

13:04 although I know that those are a thing, but just if I want to, if I've got a script that I'm

13:09 writing and I want to take values in, it's parsing the arguments passed into the script or whatever.

13:16 Click is great. I love it. But it's something extra. It's not built into Python yet. It's an

13:21 extra dependency. That's fine for a lot of times. But sometimes you just want to like a couple

13:26 different parameters that somebody could pass in. And so the built-in arg parse is part of the

13:31 standard library. And that would be good to use.

13:33 Yeah, it's cool. And it's better than just going to, you know, sys.argv and going after an array of

13:38 whatever, right? You get a little more help than that.

13:40 Right. I actually didn't realize that arg parse was so easy. So there's,

13:44 Jeff Hale put together an article called Learn Enough Python to Be Useful Arg Parse.

13:49 That's a kind of long title, but it's a tutorial on arg parse. And it's that I couldn't find a good

13:56 intro guide for arg parse when I needed one. So I wrote this article and I got to say, it's a very

14:01 nice, quick introduction. So if you want to throw some arguments on an application, try this.

14:07 It definitely seems like a good idea. There's certainly times where I'm like, you know, I just

14:10 don't feel like going to all the formality. I just need to know basically, did they pass some simple

14:15 thing here? Yes or no. Right. And this is, this is cool, especially for my little proof of concept

14:21 ideas. Yeah. Yeah. So it comes built in, which is, yeah, really nice. Nothing to install.

14:26 So you don't want to naturally take on click and make people go through virtual environments

14:30 and pip and all that. If literally this is the only, that would be the only thing, right? So

14:35 here's another good chance to not do that. Oh yeah. That's a great idea is if you don't already

14:39 have any other dependencies than, yeah, using this. Exactly. Cause that'll definitely increase the

14:44 challenge of using your code. All right. So, you got to go first with Travis CI. I have another

14:50 one that's a little bit of a sticky situation here, but I think it's really interesting to dig into.

14:55 Okay. Okay. This is actually from January 14th. Actually, let me look at the AWS blog and see when

15:02 they published it, January 9th. So this is something I've been wanting to talk about for a

15:06 little while, but it's, it's involved. There's a lot of moving parts and a lot of layers to this. So I

15:11 didn't want to just give it like a super peripheral sort of skim the surface type of thing. So here's the

15:16 deal. I'm talking about an article by a guy named Ben Thompson who runs Stratechery,

15:22 which is a really great resource for understanding the business side of software. So super, super

15:27 interesting work that he's doing there. And this one's called AWS, MongoDB and the economic realities

15:33 of open source. Yeah. And he also runs a podcast called exponent and exponent is sort of the audio

15:41 side. He does this with another guy named James and I'm linking to an hour long episode. He did on

15:48 this called inverted pyramids, which talks about demand and building platforms and things like that.

15:53 So really interesting interplay between open source cloud computing and so on, but it focused on this

15:58 disagreement at a business level between MongoDB and AWS. Okay. So MongoDB, they make databases,

16:06 right? They make a document database and they have kind of a unique API and they are definitely the

16:11 most popular of the document databases, regardless of whether you like MongoDB or not. Certainly

16:16 they are well known and well used in that space, right? In the document DB space. If you're not doing

16:22 that, you're probably doing Postgres in the Python world, but AWS wanted to have a MongoDB as a service

16:30 type of offering. Like they have RDS and other managed database options, right? They want to have

16:36 basically a MongoDB compatible one, but MongoDB, the company, their business model is basically three

16:44 things. They sell an enterprise version of the on-premise software. That's kind of unrelated to

16:50 this. They have a free community version and then they sell this thing called Atlas DB, which is MongoDB

16:56 as a service. And what you do is you go to MongoDB Atlas and you say, I'd like to run this on AWS,

17:02 or I'd like to run it on Azure or on Google's cloud. So that's MongoDB's business model. AWS just wants

17:07 just to have a service. So MongoDB, who owns the IP to like the licensing of MongoDB, the server,

17:15 changed it to something called AGPL. Have you heard of AGPL?

17:21 Well, I think, but I don't remember what it is.

17:22 So you've heard of GPL, right?

17:24 Basically, like if you use this software in yours, then you must make yours open source.

17:29 That's true when you directly depend on it. But what if it's hosted and managed by Amazon and you just

17:36 talk to it over the network? You're not interacting with it. You're not using it, right? Well, AGPL is

17:41 like GPL plus network. So if you access this software over the network, it's like the GPL applies to you.

17:47 Isn't that weird? So basically what that means is AWS cannot have a hosted MongoDB because if they do,

17:56 it triggers this AGPL and like AWS becomes open source or something crazy like this, right? Like

18:01 the consequences are too high and like Apple's banned it from the app store. Google has banned it from all

18:06 the AG, any AGPL software basically is not allowed within Google. It's really not something these cloud

18:12 companies are interested in having interactions with, right? Because it takes the GPL bit and

18:18 doesn't talk about shipping stuff, but accessing over the network. So that brings us to the interesting

18:24 part. So what does AWS do? Not just go, okay, great. We keep running Atlas. No, AWS says today,

18:30 they said this on January 9th, today we are launching Amazon DocumentDB with MongoDB compatibility,

18:36 a fast, scalable, and highly available database that's designed to be compatible with your existing

18:41 MongoDB applications and tools. It's purpose built. It has all this replication, et cetera,

18:46 et cetera. And it's all for your production scale, MongoDB workloads. So they took the exact API of

18:52 MongoDB and rebuilt a brand new server and service from it from scratch.

18:57 Okay. Interesting.

18:58 They didn't do it on the latest one because the latest one has the AGPL. So they went back to three,

19:02 six, the latest one is like four or five or something like that. So they went back to the latest one,

19:06 the newest one that doesn't have this restriction. They mimicked that, which should be good enough actually for most people, I would guess.

19:13 Yeah. Weird.

19:14 Is that interesting? Like you change your license so we can't have it. So we literally copy your API

19:19 like bite for bite on the wire identical and rebuild a new service from scratch on it.

19:24 Okay. Both sides are kind of being sneaky and whatever.

19:30 Yes. I feel a little more kinship towards the MongoDB Inc. side because they developed this whole thing from scratch and they built it up and they got it popular.

19:38 But yeah, it's definitely an interesting tit and tat.

19:42 But what is the AGPL to air all of Mongo then? What if I build my website?

19:47 Yeah. The community edition is separate for like your self hosting somehow, but there's like clauses about accessing it over the network. Basically it's, you know, very much like the GDPR is like mostly built to fight Google and Facebook, right? This, my understanding is like, basically this is to fight the cloud providers, not meant to interact with regular people just running the community version.

20:08 Okay. But regular people are running on clouds too.

20:10 I know. It's quite interesting.

20:12 I just would not want to pick a fight with one of these big players, but whatever.

20:17 Yeah. So I encourage people to both maybe first listen to the podcast and then read the article if you want to go all in, but you can skim the article. You can't really skim the podcast. I know some people do like 2.5x, but those people are crazy. It melts my brain. I can't do it.

20:31 I do 1.3.

20:32 Yeah, that's a pretty good balance. There's layer upon layer. Maybe I'll come to the conclusion real quick.

20:38 So it says, thus we have arrived at a cunardrum for open source companies.

20:42 MongoDB leveraged open source to gain mindshare, right? Started as open source.

20:46 MongoDB Inc. built a successful company selling additional tools for enterprises to run MongoDB, but more and more enterprises don't want to run software easier or not.

20:57 They want to hire AWS or Microsoft or Google or some other cloud provider to run it for them because they value performance and scalability and all that.

21:04 So it leaves MongoDB pretty much like a little bit outside the value chain, which is interesting.

21:11 And there's just a lot of interesting trade-offs for open source VC-funded companies and traditional monetization strategies are looking harder and harder in the face of cloud computing companies that just go, that's a cool API.

21:24 We'll do that.

21:24 Yeah.

21:25 I told you, lots of layers.

21:26 And I really, I don't know.

21:27 It takes a lot of pondering.

21:28 I really don't know where I am.

21:30 But it's, I think it's a big deal, honestly.

21:32 It is a big deal.

21:33 For the rest of us, the topic is important.

21:36 Document databases are kind of amazing.

21:38 And I think that we need to push those forward and having legal structures trying to get in the way of making this just better for everybody.

21:48 I know that, like, everybody that started it should be able to make money.

21:52 But also, it needs to move forward.

21:55 So, yeah, there's lots of sides to this.

21:57 There are a lot of angles and a lot of sides.

21:59 And Ben does a super job covering it.

22:02 So, anyway, link to that if that sounds interesting.

22:04 Check it out.

22:04 It's not exactly the newest of news, but I think it's big news still in the open source world.

22:09 Okay.

22:09 All right.

22:10 You got some extra stuff for us this week?

22:12 Just that I'm so terrible with names, but the people that do the Teaching Python podcast, I just released an episode of Testing Code where I interviewed them.

22:21 Yeah, I saw that come out.

22:22 That's great.

22:23 Yeah.

22:23 So, that was cool.

22:24 Do you have any extras?

22:25 I have a couple of extras, just mostly follow-ups and some news.

22:30 So, the folks running PyTexas in Austin, which sounds like a really fun place to be if you couldn't come to PyCascades in Seattle.

22:37 PyTexas 2019 is going to be April 13th and 14th.

22:41 Registration is open, and I'm linking to their page and stuff.

22:44 It looks pretty cool.

22:46 That's one.

22:46 The other is the article we covered from Anthony Shaw last week.

22:49 Apparently, it was like two years old, and somebody had sent it to us, so it felt like, oh, yeah, here's a new article from Anthony.

22:55 So, we covered it as if and without any caveats.

22:57 So, Anthony Shaw, sorry, we dug up your old, your very far past predictions of the future and then presented them from today, but they're still good.

23:07 I thought it was quite a good article, and it stands the test of time pretty well.

23:10 And finally, remember when I talked about Rust Python and I said the reason this makes me super, super happy, Brian, is that it enables this WebAssembly future of Python because Rust has a very strong WebAssembly story?

23:24 Well, on that episode page, one of the core developers posted a comment, said, thanks for covering this.

23:31 By the way, rustpython.github.io slash demo.

23:35 Yeah, that's it running in the Web.

23:37 The CPython built on Rust.

23:40 Well, Rust Python running the Web under WebAssembly.

23:44 So, if you open that bad boy up, and boom, it's up and running.

23:48 You can go and type stuff.

23:49 There's not much of a standard library.

23:50 That's something we already covered previously.

23:52 So, it's kind of mostly a language level thing.

23:55 But here it is, two megabytes WebAssembly binaries running in your browser.

24:00 It's pretty cool.

24:01 That is really pretty cool.

24:02 Yeah.

24:03 Yeah, all right.

24:04 So, that's all of it for my extra stuff as well.

24:06 Okay.

24:07 You got a joke for me?

24:08 People are enjoying this joke segment.

24:10 I'm enjoying the joke segment.

24:11 I do not have one.

24:12 Okay, I got two.

24:13 I'll see what you think of these, okay?

24:14 Okay.

24:15 Why was the developer unhappy at their job?

24:17 I don't know.

24:18 Why?

24:18 They wanted arrays.

24:19 A-R-R-A-Y-S.

24:21 Arrays.

24:22 That's pretty bad.

24:24 That's lists for all the Python people.

24:26 Yes.

24:26 Where did the parallel function wash its hands?

24:29 I'm not sure where.

24:30 In async.

24:31 A-S.

24:32 Was there a line, or did it have to wait?

24:36 Oh, that's pretty good.

24:37 Yeah, these are bad.

24:38 These are pretty bad, but here they are.

24:40 No, it's good.

24:42 I have kids, so I'll retell these.

24:45 They won't understand it, but that's all right.

24:47 Yeah, but they'll be in the style in which they should appreciate.

24:52 The jokes just won't make sense.

24:54 Yeah.

24:55 Anyway.

24:55 Awesome.

24:56 All right.

24:56 Well, welcome back, and thanks for doing the show with me today.

24:59 Yeah, thank you.

25:00 You bet.

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