Transcript #69: Digging into StackOverflow's 2018 survey results

00:00 Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

00:05 This is episode 69, recorded March 15th, 2018. I'm Michael Kennedy.

00:11 And I'm Brian Okken.

00:12 And Brian, probably nothing to cover with notebooks or anything.

00:16 Like last time we had kind of an over-the-top notebook thing, didn't we?

00:19 Yeah, we did. We covered a few topics on notebooks.

00:22 Good thing. We probably won't do that again this week.

00:24 I just want to say a quick thanks to DigitalOcean.

00:27 They're sponsoring this episode and many of the episodes of Python Bytes.

00:30 So they really are helping make the show happen.

00:33 Check them out at do.co slash Python.

00:36 We'll talk more about that later.

00:38 Maybe we'll talk about notebooks, Brian.

00:40 Yeah, let's talk about them just for a little bit.

00:42 So because we talked about notebooks last time, one of our listeners contacted us and said,

00:50 we should take a look at a project called PYNB.

00:54 It says, Jupyter Notebooks in plain Python code with embedded markdown text.

00:59 So the comment from our listener was, loves Jupyter Notebooks, but he also loves using his own editor.

01:06 I think he uses PyCharm.

01:07 I like doing that too, but you can't, it's like not trivial to edit.

01:13 I haven't even tried to try to edit a notebook in PyCharm.

01:17 You probably can, but I haven't tried.

01:20 But anyway, but I, I like this idea of there's, it's basically a converter that you can convert back and forth between a plain text with,

01:30 or a Python code with embedded markdown back and forth to a notebook.

01:35 So it looks pretty cool.

01:37 Yeah, it's pretty wild.

01:38 So you define like a cells function, and then you can put like docstring type equivalent of markdown,

01:45 and that becomes a cell.

01:46 And then you put a little bit of Python, that becomes a Python cell.

01:49 the more markdown within docstrings, and that becomes like another cell.

01:52 And yeah, it's super cool.

01:54 So a really nice, simple example.

01:55 It's quite cool.

01:56 Yeah.

01:57 And one of the things that it points out, which is nifty, is it allows you to,

02:01 to use diffs better with, with your version control tools or things like that.

02:06 So that's, yeah, it's worth checking out if you, if you want to do more with notebooks,

02:11 but want to be able to store them in plain text better.

02:14 It's really just right down to the essence of it, isn't it?

02:17 Because the notebooks, they're pretty verbose.

02:19 If you crack open the text file and look at them, you know, you look at,

02:22 you look at this, and it's like, literally what you would see in the notebook is like,

02:26 all you type.

02:27 It's pretty cool.

02:27 was one of my to-do lists was to play with some notebooks a little bit.

02:31 So I'll play with this also.

02:32 Yeah.

02:33 So PiNB, Pi Notebook, check that out.

02:35 Very, very cool.

02:36 So you know how there's this really cool William Gibson quote, the future is already here.

02:41 It's just not evenly distributed.

02:42 Yeah.

02:43 I love that.

02:44 That's a cool quote.

02:45 Yeah, I do too.

02:45 And I often, when I think of like, oh, where's that future we were hoping for?

02:49 Well, it's not, well here.

02:50 Well, maybe it is.

02:51 It's just not evenly distributed.

02:52 So this next thing feels like it kind of falls into that realm.

02:56 And it's, it's definitely, like from the futuristic world.

03:00 I don't know how far futuristic is this two years in the future, 10 years or a hundred years or,

03:06 or something like that.

03:07 Or is it just live in science fiction?

03:08 But I promise this has something to do with Python.

03:10 It just takes a moment to get to it.

03:12 So the announcement is that Microsoft has created a quantum computing language called Q sharp.

03:19 Yeah.

03:19 Okay.

03:20 This just sounds neat.

03:21 This is awesome.

03:22 Right.

03:22 Yeah.

03:23 And it's been out for a little while.

03:25 And we were talking before the show.

03:27 It's like, it was almost worth covering before just because, wow, there's a program programming language specifically designed for quantum

03:34 computers.

03:34 That's a pretty nice language actually.

03:37 But the news is now it's available for macOS and Linux and you can try it.

03:42 Right.

03:43 So there's this new language called Q sharp.

03:45 And if you look at it, it's a little bit like C#.

03:47 It's also a little bit like either typescript in some ways, but also like Python.

03:52 And I was really pleased to see like the if statements don't have parentheses around the

03:57 condition and stuff like that, because we don't need them.

04:00 Why are we forced to write all those parentheses?

04:02 Like they're unnecessary.

04:03 We all know that from Python and Q sharp is sort of borrowing some of these cool ideas.

04:07 The type annotations are very much similar to Python's type annotations as well.

04:13 So quite cool.

04:14 There's this new language.

04:15 One of the first questions you might ask is like, great, there's this quantum computer programming language,

04:20 but there's no quantum computers.

04:22 So what's the point?

04:24 Like, why are we going to run this?

04:25 I mean, I know there's like a couple of bits, but not, you can't go and get like a quantum computer to test your program on.

04:31 So how do you test it?

04:32 Good question.

04:33 Yeah.

04:33 So they've got like this emulator type thing that emulates the behavior of a quantum computer,

04:37 although I suspect it's slower than a real one.

04:39 Well, are there, maybe I'm just not up to date.

04:42 Are there quantum computers now?

04:44 There are like, I can't remember who was, it feels like IBM, but there's like a couple of bits,

04:51 like a two bit quantum computer and like, like it's super, super cold environment that can do like very simple things.

04:58 So, but it's not like a general purpose, you know, unless you've got like a hydrogen bath,

05:04 like liquid hydrogen bath to put it in and things like that.

05:07 So it's, it's based on topological qubits and quantum computers.

05:12 So hence Q sharp, and it's out from macOS and Linux.

05:15 It's awesome.

05:15 On windows, you can play with it in visual studio standard, but on Mac and Linux,

05:21 you can use Visual Studio Code.

05:22 And there's like a quantum, programming code extension for Visual Studio Codes.

05:27 That's pretty cool.

05:28 Yeah.

05:29 And so you're saying that this ties into Python somehow.

05:32 Somehow.

05:33 In fact, so they said, all right, we created this new language and we created this way to emulate it.

05:37 And there's actually some stuff in their cloud computing platform, Azure,

05:40 where like you can plug in these things.

05:42 So like they all tie together in interesting ways, but they said, look, we know other languages exist.

05:47 And they're really important.

05:49 The one language we think is so important.

05:51 It should be involved in this as well as Python.

05:53 So you can now, you can now call, use Python to program quantum computers.

06:00 Oh, that is awesome.

06:02 Yeah.

06:02 That's awesome.

06:03 Right.

06:03 You know, emulated quantum computers, but still super awesome.

06:06 And they said, Oh, and a lot of this analysis has to do with like data science type stuff.

06:10 So we'll also support Jupyter.

06:12 Yeah.

06:12 I predict a whole bunch of like people in college doing their thesis on this

06:17 stuff like this.

06:18 Yeah.

06:19 That's a really good point.

06:19 Put the, the, the, the sciencey aspect back in computer science, right?

06:23 Yeah, definitely.

06:24 That'd be neat.

06:25 So do you speak Spanish, Brian?

06:27 I, you know, this is embarrassing.

06:30 I took two years of it in high school, but I barely can order a burrito.

06:34 Yeah.

06:35 My Spanish is not very good, but one of, there is, there is a fellow, a Valbana,

06:41 I think is his name.

06:43 that does speak Spanish.

06:45 And he gave a talk at PyCon ES in 2017 about pytest and let me know about it and,

06:53 showed me the slides and, and this was kind of cool.

06:56 He sent it to me on Twitter and said, Hey, I forgot to tell you, I gave this talk last year and I think it was in September.

07:03 And, and I said, that looks really cool.

07:06 There's a lot of neat stuff in it.

07:08 Unfortunately, I don't speak Spanish.

07:11 but neat anyway.

07:13 And he said, Oh, let me translate it for you.

07:15 So he translated the slide deck for me and the slide deck.

07:18 We have a link to the English slides.

07:20 and there's also, if you speak Spanish or want to watch anyway, there's a video on YouTube that we'll link to.

07:27 but one of the things I, one of the reasons I wanted to bring it up is because there's some neat things in there that I'd never heard of before.

07:33 There's some that I have and some that I haven't.

07:35 Like for instance, he does talk about, using pytest Django.

07:39 So how to, how to, how to hook up pytest with, Django models and stuff.

07:43 And then a thing called model mommy, which is a way to mock out, Django models.

07:50 haven't heard of that.

07:51 One of the things that doesn't get that I need to talk about in full length on my podcast is,

07:57 I test lazy fixture, which is, it's probably soon to be one of the recommended ways to,

08:03 to have fixtures be able to go into a test function parameterized input.

08:11 Anyway, it's a, it takes a bit of explaining, but then there's some fun,

08:16 also some fun things.

08:17 freeze gun is a way to freeze time for your testing into a specific spot.

08:22 And the interface, it looks really cool on freeze gun.

08:24 That's cool.

08:25 That, I love the names here, the model mommy and the freeze gun.

08:28 These are great.

08:28 Yeah.

08:29 And then a package called eradicate, which, like removes all the comments out of some code because,

08:36 you know, sometimes code is easier to read if you remove the comments.

08:40 So that's fun.

08:41 Code comments are deodorant for code spells, right?

08:46 They're there to explain why your code is fully written.

08:48 Right.

08:49 So a lot of the times if they're not full on documentation meant for like a help statement.

08:53 Yeah, I totally agree.

08:53 That's awesome.

08:54 Anyway, those are, those are some fun things.

08:56 So I wanted to bring it up and then a bonus topic, just today was announced that,

09:01 by test.org added a reference page, which has a one page reference, full reference to the by test API.

09:09 Oh, that's cool.

09:10 All, all in one place.

09:11 Yeah.

09:12 Super nice.

09:13 All right.

09:13 Speaking about stuff in one place, let me tell you about digital ocean and a cool feature they have.

09:19 So, you know, that you can go to digital ocean and create virtual machines,

09:22 right?

09:22 Like Linux servers and stuff.

09:23 Yeah.

09:24 Yeah.

09:24 So, you know, that's just the start a lot of time.

09:27 What if you want to run get lab or you want to like set up MongoDB, or you're going to run like a discourse server,

09:34 you got to install Ruby, you got to install the whole discourse stuff, the database,

09:37 et cetera.

09:38 So one of the things you can do at digital ocean, and when you go to create a new machine,

09:42 they call them droplets, as you can create these one clip apps, one click apps.

09:46 So I can click over here and say, I would like to click and say, boom, new discourse server,

09:50 all set up, configure it and save, go.

09:52 I want a new ghost server, go.

09:54 I want a new WordPress instance, go.

09:55 And just click it and it's up and running.

09:57 It's pretty awesome.

09:58 Really?

09:59 Okay.

09:59 That's neat.

10:00 Yeah.

10:01 You can even do Docker.

10:01 Like you want a Docker server, boom, hit that button and you've got Docker 17,

10:05 12 running.

10:06 Yeah.

10:08 On Ubuntu 1604.

10:08 Perfect.

10:09 Neat.

10:10 I'll have to check out all the one click things they've got.

10:12 Sounds cool.

10:13 Yeah.

10:13 So they got a bunch of stuff that helps you get going in a, a nice way.

10:16 So check that out.

10:18 D O C O slash D O dot C O slash Python.

10:20 And let them know that they are doing the right thing, supporting our show.

10:23 Great.

10:24 It is once again, that season in which the stack of workflow developer survey results come

10:30 back, come out.

10:31 So the 2018 developer survey results are out.

10:35 They said they had a hundred thousand, over a hundred thousand developers this time.

10:39 I think last year they had 64,000.

10:41 So this is cool.

10:42 It's growing.

10:42 And I thought it'd be fun to just cover some of the, high points.

10:46 They spent a lot of time actually talking about like history of education.

10:52 You know, like how much education level did your parents have a lot of that kind of social

10:58 stuff.

10:59 Interesting.

10:59 That, that sounds neat.

11:00 Yeah.

11:01 Yeah.

11:01 It's pretty interesting.

11:02 Like, yeah, things like that.

11:04 There's a bunch of that, but I'm going to focus mostly on like the tech tech bits.

11:08 So first, one of the first questions they asked was about open source.

11:12 And they said, how many of you contribute to open source and 55% of professional developers contribute to

11:19 open source.

11:19 That's higher than I would have expected.

11:21 That's awesome.

11:22 Yeah.

11:22 Yeah.

11:22 It's really awesome.

11:23 I think for, all respondents, there were some students and stuff and people who retired.

11:28 So it was slightly higher.

11:29 It's not surprising, but I thought the professional 55% was like the most interesting there.

11:33 And then people often feel like if they didn't get a computer science degree in school,

11:38 like they don't necessarily belong in programming or it's hard for them to get into programming,

11:43 but it turns out that only 64% of the people have CS degrees.

11:46 That's actually, yeah, I think that that's actually seems high to me.

11:50 there's only about a third or less of the people I work with have CS degrees.

11:55 Yeah, I agree.

11:56 I think that seems even high for my experience as well.

11:58 Maybe CS degree people spend a lot of time on stack overflow.

12:01 I don't know.

12:01 Maybe, but why are they spending so much time?

12:04 Because supposedly they have a degree.

12:06 Exactly.

12:07 Come on.

12:07 so one of the, one of the social things they talked about was sort of the sense of,

12:13 belonging.

12:14 Oh, nice.

12:15 People's perspective as developers among their peers.

12:18 So they taught, they put that under the manner of experience and belonging.

12:21 And they said, they had a graph and they said, okay, how much do you feel this is,

12:27 is true or false over time?

12:28 Like how much does this apply to you over time?

12:31 Well, not over time, but if you've had one year experience versus a people with five year experience,

12:35 versus people with 10 years, there's like a graph over years of experience and,

12:38 and this metric.

12:39 So they said, your connection and sense of community with other developers.

12:44 And apparently the more time you spend in the programming world, the more that,

12:48 you know, matches, which makes sense.

12:49 Right.

12:50 But they, they also said, how much do you feel like you're competing with your peers instead of actually

12:56 working together?

12:57 Right.

12:57 How much do you see it as a zero sum game?

12:59 I guess.

12:59 And at, in the beginning, it's people feel quite high that it's like direct competition.

13:04 That person gets more recognition.

13:06 I get less, they get a raise.

13:08 I don't, I don't know something like that, but over time that diminishes quite significantly.

13:12 That's good.

13:12 Same thing for, yeah, for sure.

13:14 And then also the feeling of I'm not as good of a programmer as my peers

13:18 pretty high at the beginning.

13:20 Over time, people feel less and less and less like that's a true statement,

13:23 which I thought it was good as well.

13:25 I mean, it seems to me like all of these are going in the right direction,

13:28 the longer you're in programming, which is a positive statement for the whole ecosystem.

13:34 Yeah.

13:34 So, but it also shows that we need to try to teach students, try to get that connectedness and the less,

13:41 less competitiveness.

13:43 Teach that earlier.

13:44 Yeah.

13:45 Right away.

13:45 Right away.

13:46 You want a kind of a bleak statement that totally applies to me.

13:49 How much time do you spend on computers?

13:50 The most popular answer, nine to 12 hours a day.

13:54 Does that include your phone?

13:56 I think it might even be behind a screen.

13:59 I'm not entirely sure, but if like you kick back and play games or watch Netflix or whatever,

14:02 it was also notable that the usage of Python has exceeded C# for the first time.

14:09 They called that out specifically, I think.

14:10 Yeah.

14:11 Cool.

14:11 Then the couple more things like there's languages and databases.

14:16 They talk about the most loved, the most dreaded and the most wanted.

14:20 So most love is you're using it and you love it.

14:22 Dreaded is like you've had to use it or you've never, ever want to use it.

14:25 It gives you fear.

14:26 And then wanted is I'm not yet using it, but I want to use it.

14:29 So these are all interesting ways to measure things.

14:31 So languages most love.

14:32 Number one is rust, even though not that many people use it among the people who use it.

14:36 They love it so much.

14:37 Apparently, Kotlin is number two and Python is number three.

14:40 Pretty nice.

14:42 Okay.

14:42 Yeah.

14:42 Dreaded VB six and coffee script.

14:45 Keep away.

14:45 Wanted.

14:47 Python is number one, the most wanted language by 25%.

14:51 Number two is JavaScript at 19, which is quite a drop.

14:54 And then go is at 16%.

14:56 So it drops off really quick.

14:57 And Python is sort of ruling that.

14:59 Yeah.

15:00 That's great.

15:00 Yeah.

15:01 Databases.

15:02 Yeah.

15:02 Databases.

15:03 Most love Postgres.

15:03 Most dreaded is IBM DB2.

15:05 Memcached in Oracle.

15:07 And Memcached was responsible for the largest distributed denial of service attack ever.

15:12 And that was put onto GitHub recently.

15:15 So, and then most wanted is MongoDB.

15:16 A most popular editor, Visual Studio Code.

15:19 Pretty interesting.

15:20 Yeah.

15:21 And for developers, what OS do they use?

15:23 Last thing.

15:24 Windows, 49%.

15:26 macOS, 27%.

15:28 Linux, 23%.

15:29 Not where they deploy to, but what do they write their code on?

15:32 That, and this is one that we need to pay attention to more, I think.

15:36 Because, of all the, a lot of the, the podcasters and bloggers and all of that within the Python community,

15:44 I think, either Linux or macOS might be, higher.

15:48 Much higher.

15:49 but you're teaching to a group of people that half of them are running Windows.

15:54 So you just can't ignore Windows.

15:56 Yeah.

15:57 It's, it's a really good point that like, even though it's sort of the thought leaders and the people who see at conferences and,

16:02 and speakers and whatnot are probably either Linux or Mac, the actual people doing the work and using the stuff is,

16:08 is very much Windows still.

16:10 So definitely not to be forgotten.

16:12 Speaking of presenting.

16:13 Speaking of presenting, Doug Hellman, he came up with, and there's got a new project,

16:21 called Demo Shell.

16:23 And the idea is, it came out like somebody named Gene Hack on Twitter said,

16:30 Hey speakers, if you're going to do live demos in a shell, clear the screen after every command and get the prompt back to the top.

16:37 So folks in the back can see what you're doing.

16:40 And that's, completely reasonable.

16:43 Yeah, it's a great idea.

16:44 But instead of fiddling with it, so this, demo shell is this site.

16:49 The idea is basically just to do that, to capture, a Python project, to capture your input and emulate a shell.

16:57 But it really just pushes all the work off to a shell to do the work.

17:00 But, but between commands, puts your prompt back at the top and it's, it's in its very early stages.

17:08 So, I actually reached out to Doug and said, Hey, do you want me to announce this yet?

17:13 Are you, you ready for it?

17:15 And he said, yeah, I put it up there to start the discussion.

17:17 Be happy if a bunch of people showed up and, started, participating and adding things.

17:22 But, he added a warning also that, too much interest is going to be met with commit privileges on the repo.

17:30 Essentially, if you want stuff done, he might say, Hey, just go ahead and do it.

17:36 but actually that's a good thing.

17:38 He's up, he's up for people to help him out.

17:40 So, yeah, I think it's really neat.

17:42 It's a cool idea.

17:43 It definitely makes a lot of sense.

17:45 I've done so many training classes where it's not like stadium seating.

17:48 It's like flat, right?

17:50 And it's usually in some room with a crappy projector screen.

17:54 That's like too small, like a third of it's off, you know, people in the back can't see it at all.

17:58 And this is perfect, right?

17:59 You just, everything stays at the top.

18:01 It's really great.

18:02 And people out there looking to find an open source project to work on, right?

18:06 Go and express some interest.

18:08 You might be met with commit privileges on the repo, but it's, it's still in its really small stages.

18:13 There's not a lot of code there, so it's pretty easy to read.

18:16 So yeah, that's awesome.

18:17 It's cool.

18:17 Nice.

18:18 All right.

18:18 So let's wrap this up with a really nice definitive statement.

18:23 The last thing I want to talk to talk about is Python two's end of life.

18:27 So we've spoken before how there's the Python death clock and it's, we know that in 2020,

18:33 Python two will go unsupported.

18:36 What exactly does that mean?

18:37 How strict are they going to be about that?

18:39 Is it going to be at PyCon 2020?

18:42 Is it going to be the end of the year, beginning of the year?

18:44 Well, my friend, Nicola Aroshi, he, who I have more news about in just a little bit,

18:49 he's put this out on Twitter and got my attention.

18:53 Basically there was this discussion on the Python mailing list saying, will there be a period where Python two seven is in security only status

19:02 before hitting end of life.

19:03 So like say 2020, will it go into like, well, we'll do security fixes for a while,

19:08 but no new features and we're not changing anything.

19:10 Or like, what is that going to happen earlier?

19:12 Guido actually came out and said, let's not play games with semantics.

19:16 The way I see it, the situation for two seven is the end of life is January 1st,

19:21 2020 beginning of 2020.

19:23 And there will be no updates, not even source only security patches after that date,

19:27 period support from the core devs, the PSF, Python.org completely stops on that date.

19:33 Yeah.

19:33 There's, there's your answer.

19:35 That's a pretty abundantly clear, isn't it?

19:38 Yeah, but that's way out.

19:40 That's like, that's like, like way in the future.

19:43 That has to be at least, a year and a half away.

19:45 So for those people with like millions of lines of code on Python too, they probably should start checking out things like my pie and some of the

19:55 other tooling on pushing that along.

19:57 Right.

19:57 Yeah.

19:58 Or, I mean, if you're planning on leaving your job and going to another company within the

20:03 next couple of years, don't worry about it.

20:04 Yeah, exactly.

20:05 Or I, I know I've got a better one for you, Brian.

20:08 I got a better one.

20:09 Or you want to get a really sweet consulting job, migrating Python two to Python three,

20:15 you know, learn all the nuances and go and, you know, when people are freaking out in November of 2019,

20:23 you're going to be in sweet demand.

20:25 Actually, that's not a bad idea.

20:28 Right.

20:28 My rate's $250 an hour to start.

20:30 So let's go with that.

20:31 Yeah.

20:33 I can help you with this problem.

20:34 It's going to take a while though.

20:35 Hmm.

20:36 I got, I got about a year to beef up on my conversion, do some conversion study on this.

20:42 Right.

20:42 All right.

20:42 Yeah.

20:43 Awesome.

20:44 Do you, you got any, news or extra things you want to throw out there?

20:47 You did some recent testing code episodes, right?

20:49 Yeah.

20:49 So I, I guess I just wanted to shout out that I'm back into recording more often.

20:53 Yeah.

20:55 Yeah.

20:56 and I thought I'd, I start with a little test project.

21:01 So I've got a project called cards that, it's kind of a to do app, but I want to,

21:06 I'm focusing around using it as an, just as an example bed to talk about things that I get questions about all the time.

21:13 So, okay, your book is great for how to write the, the tests actually, but what tests do I write?

21:19 How do I pick which tests to write?

21:21 How do I, how do I pick test cases?

21:23 Basically this, this, intro to quality assurance, but for busy people that don't have a QA team,

21:30 how do I do that?

21:31 So that's where, where we're exploring.

21:33 I'm, I'm two episodes into it and I'm just going to run with it until it runs out of steam.

21:37 So check those out.

21:39 Those are really awesome.

21:40 I think that's great, advice.

21:41 And when people get that wrong, testing seems super horrible, right?

21:45 You're like, what do you mean I got to test every single thing?

21:47 Like, like if you're focused on testing the wrong thing, you can just feel super,

21:51 like it's just super busy work.

21:53 Yeah.

21:53 But it's, testing should be something to help you, develop faster, not slow you down.

21:58 And that's where I'm focusing my energy.

22:00 How about you?

22:01 Anything else?

22:02 Well, I just got back from PyCon Slovakia.

22:05 That was pretty awesome.

22:06 So I wanted to send a shout out to everyone there who I met.

22:08 And that was, that was fun.

22:09 So if you're in central Europe ish, next year, be sure to check that out.

22:14 That was a good event.

22:15 And also I have a new course.

22:16 You do.

22:17 And I'm excited about it.

22:18 Yeah.

22:19 it's on the most, most wanted database technology.

22:22 So this is our, the first course based on Flask that I have.

22:26 So this is, on a thing called Eve, Eve, E, the E framework, which is a way to take Flask and a MongoDB database and turn it into a really awesome,

22:36 restful API with validation and business logic and all that kind of stuff.

22:41 So it's, it's a super cool way.

22:43 And it's like really declarative.

22:44 So you say, here's my models.

22:45 Here's my end points.

22:46 Here's the validation for them.

22:47 Make that a rest service.

22:49 Go.

22:49 And it's nice.

22:51 So that's out now.

22:52 That's actually written by Nicola Aroshi, the guy who talked about the Python two seven statement.

22:57 He, he wrote that.

22:59 And we just shipped it.

23:00 He's also the creator and maintainer of Eve.

23:02 So, he's pretty qualified to talk about it.

23:04 That's great.

23:05 And I'm, I've already started listening to it because I'm very interested in this topic.

23:09 So, yeah.

23:10 Awesome.

23:10 Cool.

23:11 Well, links in the show notes, check that out.

23:13 And I think that might be it.

23:15 I'm really excited that we have a concrete statement on Python two seven and it's not like,

23:19 it's just vague, right?

23:21 Yeah.

23:21 That's good to have it.

23:22 I wonder if they updated the clock.

23:24 Exactly.

23:24 I was just thinking that we've got to recalibrate all the clocks.

23:27 Cause they were all guessing.

23:28 They probably got shorter.

23:30 Awesome.

23:30 All right.

23:31 Well, thanks again, Brian.

23:32 And thanks everyone for listening.

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23:55 This is Michael Kennedy.

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